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Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons? (Read 4145 times)
Lee_the_slinger
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Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Aug 18th, 2014 at 5:34pm
 
The expandable baton is possibly the one weapon I have the most trouble understanding it's classified as a deadly weapon throughout the US and the states that allow you to carry them require you to take a training class and get a permit and some people say it's a great weapon but others says it's ineffective or useless and likely to get you killed and from what I hear you can get in serious trouble for hitting an attacker above the neck even if your life is in jeopardy! It seems really stupid to me and I would like to know from y'alls experience are they as deadly as their title and certain people suggest, able to effectively and easily incapacitate an attacker even without hitting them in the head? I have little experience using them and I haven't got a clue how powerful or not they can really be Huh so I'd like to hear what y'all have to say about it whether your a law enforcement officer or just someone who carries one or experimented with them. Thanks in advance I await your answers.
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #1 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 6:17pm
 
There's no such thing as a non-lethal weapon, just a less lethal weapon. I agree with their legal designation as a deadly weapon. And unlike a baseball bat or a cane, a collapsible baton doesn't come with the "I had it for a different reason and only swung it because I had it with me" legal defense. If you're a responsible adult with no criminal record and you can demonstrate that you've been trained in the proper use of the baton and a jury believes that you didn't do anything excessive then you might be able to escape a criminal trial with your hide intact. Otherwise, nope. Either way, your wallet is going to be emptied by all the court fees.

In other words, a baton is just a bad idea all around.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Lee_the_slinger
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #2 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 9:43pm
 
Legal matters aside though you agree it's a powerful weapon deserving it's designation, so anyone else have an opinion of its power perhaps a LEO or riot officer that has experience with them?
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #3 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 10:14pm
 
Powerful relative to what? It's definitely inferior to a single piece baton because there will always be the potential for it to collapse in use. IMHO it's also a much worse weapon than anything ranged, including pepper spray.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Lee_the_slinger
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #4 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 10:57pm
 
Not really relative to any other weapon but relative to the injuries that it can cause, as for it collapsing I don't believe that's a problem when it's swung the force extends it open once again in fact from my experience hitting a log you can go from full closed to fully open before making contact with your target.
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #5 - Aug 19th, 2014 at 5:09am
 
I don't see any power advantage or increased lethality with an expandable over a more traditional night stick or tonfa.  I can see just how much better for the LEO it must be to not have to constantly draw it out of their belt every time they get in their vehicles, and then always remember to grab it while getting out.  And then there is the whole walking running climbing and maneuverability through a normal pedestrian day with a full size stick bouncing off the back of your knee that must feel similar to my tool belt with a hammer in the loop.
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #6 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 11:14am
 
I can speak with some authority here; I've carried one for about 20 years.
The expandable baton has become pretty much standard for police use due to the fact that it's always there.... The traditional nightstick or "baton" (to use the euphemism..) is just as effective but tended to get left in the police car.   Kind of a pain to carry...  Also, in a potentially-explosive situation like a domestic disturbance, often felt to be intimidating or threatening...
The expandable is unobtrusive, sits easily on the belt, and can be drawn and deployed as needed.

Now... As to use.

Part of the deal with these is that they are meant to be used against nerve-plexus targets.   This pretty much applies to regular sticks as well...
Attacking the head, the joints, intending to break bones like the collarbone (all standard techniques in the past) are now pretty much forbidden UNLESS deadly force is called for.

"Deadly force" is a legal term.   It means, Likely to cause death or "serious injury" which would include fractures, concussion, etc.
So... We are trained to hit folks in the big nerve plexus areas of the upper thigh, the calf, the radial side of the forearm, etc.
Done properly, this results in a rather massive "charly horse" situation which is pretty incapacitating.
Sometimes....
Doesn't always work especially on druggies or drunks.

Many areas, as you note, have declared the things illegal for civilian use.  The thinking being that without the specialized training, civilians are likely just to go for the head, with the expected result of depressed fractures, subdural hematoma, and other serious and long-term head injuries.

Legally, the use of any impact weapon is problematic, unless you are in a situation where a high level of force is justified.
A much larger or stronger attacker.  Someone similarly armed.  Something like that.
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Lee_the_slinger
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #7 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 12:15pm
 
Thanks bikewer that was very informative, I think you hit on all the points (no pun intended)  Smiley so similarly armed or larger opponents and I'm assuming possibly when your out numbered but legally speaking would the law be more lenient towards someone using a knife in a deadly force situation or a baton (or similar impact weapon) in a deadly force situation I would think a knife would be a much more devastating weapon more likely to kill or seriously injure than a baton?
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Bikewer
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #8 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 8:32pm
 
Legalities in these situations tend to get awfully complicated.  In general, the public thinks of knives as a thug's weapon.  "Those" people use knives.
Good "mericuns" just shoot 'em....    Silly but true; there are many jurisdictions that allow you to carry a gun with rather minimal training but prohibit most knives for this purpose...

Generally, a stick (especially when used with some discretion) is not seen as the weapon of a baddie....

However, purpose-built clubs and truncheons (like the euphemistic "tire knocker" so many people seem to have in their car) may not be so viewed.

Self-defense law is hideously complex.   I strongly recommend reading some of Mas Ayoob's stuff.... He makes a living teaching this material.  (He's a big fan of pepper-spray.  Me too.)
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #9 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 9:38pm
 
Massad Ayoob is a great resource.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #10 - Aug 22nd, 2014 at 1:21pm
 
... a can of Wasp spray
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #11 - Aug 23rd, 2014 at 1:36pm
 
...used other than directed = headaches and trouble
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #12 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 5:21am
 
I bought a 21" ASP baton years ago, and gave it to my step-dad when I left for the army.  The diameter of the baton was the same as the belt loop on levi's bluejeans, so I, and then my stepdad, would slide it into our belt loop, and pull our shirts over it.  It would stick out obviously, but people were too shy or too stupid to ask (I told one person who did ask that it was a tubular pager- this was in 1998, though).
After a year of carrying it through the park while walking the dogs, my stepdad had a chance to use it on two pitbulls that got loose, and attacked him, and our dogs.
The little ball of metal at the end of the asp baton ended up halfway through the skull of one of the pitbulls.  My stepdad doesn't pull his punches.  Instant death.  My stepdad isn't a small guy- he can carry a bale of hay under each arm all day, but, a downward swing crushed the skull of a pitbull on the first try.  It could do the same to a human.

I now carry a flat leather sap (Errr....Book place-holder).  Why flat?  I can make a bruise with the flat side, or I can turn it, and break bones, and it fits in the front pocket of my levis without anyone asking about it.  (pagers, even tubular models, having gone the way of the dinosaur.)
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #13 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 10:17am
 
A bit of history for those interested.   When I started my police career in '68, nearly everyone carried a "slapper".   That's a flat, spring-loaded leather sap.
Other devices that were popular included "sap gloves", blackjacks, and various other kinds of impact weapons that were intended to be used at close range.
Nightsticks were mostly wood, but plastic models had just been introduced.
There was little or no training with any of these devices.  We, in the police academy, were encouraged to "buy a nightstick and don't be afraid to use it".
The normal target was the head.
I had a fair bit of training with different forms of stick fighting... Never bought any sort of slapper, and kept a conventional nightstick.      Large, long, heavy flashlights were popular as well... The typical 5-cell "Kel-Light" was quite popular.

Long about the mid-70s, things began to change.   Most more-progressive departments flatly prohibited anything other than a conventional nightstick.   We were not told particularly why, but it was assumed that it was something to do with liability. 

The nightstick continued to be standard and again, there was little in the way of training.   "Hit 'em in the head" was pretty much the technique.   
Somewhere around the mid 80s, I attended a "Risk Management" class that was geared to "use of force" complaints.
The reasons for banning all those various weapons became clear.
People were filing large lawsuits for head trauma and debilitating injuries... And winning.   Blows to the head were causing serious, long-term disabling injuries.  Cognitive problems, memory loss, tremors, Parkinson's.....
Blows to joints (which is what I had primarily learned) caused severe, long-term debilitating injuries like "drop foot"   (a nerve-damage syndrome).
All of these things were sources of lucrative lawsuits and plaintiffs were winning them.

So...Police departments across the country radically changed their use-of force policies.    Systems like the popular PPCT system (Pressure Point Control Tactics) became standardized.
A strict "continuum of force" system was implemented.
Less-lethal or non-lethal devices like pepper-spray and Tasers were incorporated.
"Defensive tactics" were altered to promote techniques which would (hopefully) subdue the resisting suspect without causing permanent injury..... And which could also be defended in court.
Our department is pretty typical.  We usually carry a Taser, pepper-spray, an expandable baton, and a pistol.   We have an AR-platform "patrol rifle" in the squad car.
So we can go anywhere from "standing around looking like police" to up to any level of force required.
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Re: Do any of y'all use or have experience with expandable batons?
Reply #14 - Aug 29th, 2014 at 12:30pm
 
    Bottom line;  if you're attacked and you use a weapon to defend yourself, even if you're completely in the right, you'll be arrested and have to hire a lawyer.  You'll have to defend yourself in court.  The legal system will put you through hell.  I was attacked in my own front yard by a prowler.  I grabbed a small bat out of my car, an opened Jeep, and defended myself.  I was eventually acquitted but not until I was arrested, handcuffed in front of my neighbors, fingerprinted, booked, had to hire a lawyer for $1500.00, and tortured by the legal system for six months.   To this day I don't know what I could have done differently other than let him kill me and have his way with my daughter and downstairs neighbors (both women at the time).  Before you use ANY sort of weapon on someone MAKE SURE that you have no other choice because even if you're only defending yourself our legal system will put you through more worry and chit than you can imagine.
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