Slinging.org Forum - How did the ancient sling ?

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #30 - Aug 22^nd, 2014 at 4:50am In the aryballos from Delos (posted elsewhere), the starting position is wrist down. I.e. quite possibly a fig-8 style.
Back to top	IP Logged

Mark-Harrop

Funditor

Offline

cracker of zombieskulls

Posts: 553
worldwide
Gender: male

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #31 - Aug 22^nd, 2014 at 11:12am

Thearos wrote:
In the Makron cup, notice the gesture: tensing the cords and seating the stone. Any slinger recognises this. It's not a photograph, but realistic.

(I could, of course, give lots of pictures of things on r-f vases that are realistically shown, with parallels from archaeology and real life, but that would waste bandwidth. I also should admit that I have not watched any vids of Mr Harrop slinging, but from Jaegoor's critique, it sounds like the familiar "boom-boom" whanging of the recreational slinger, overstressed shots, uncontrolled body-weight, and overworked joints).

I'll take on Jaegoor, or any other champion you have in mind.

Grin

You and that Makron cup. Get some new material, I think just about everyone is tired of hearing about it.
Yes, we've seen it…but there is no Makron video, and slinging hasn't changed.
What is your point Professor?

To keep repeating the same thing over and over again until…

until what?

Back to top

My daughters can figure-8...

IP Logged

Mark-Harrop

Funditor

Offline

cracker of zombieskulls

Posts: 553
worldwide
Gender: male

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #32 - Aug 22^nd, 2014 at 11:22am

You see Professor, I know what you want.

I deal with people like you every day.

They sit in the back of the class, roll their eyes, whisper…

They, and you, want to be engaged.

You like trying to push people's buttons, to see if you can annoy people into action.

Kids do it in the car with, Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

You want me to go kinetic on you. To unload…

So you can push your glasses up, twist the end of your moustache, and say "see, he's an uncouth brute and I am the composed intellectual"

I know your type…well.

The fact that you have yet to mount an effective argument also leads me to believe that you are not what you claim. In this little battle of wits we have engaged in, you appear to be unarmed.

Nice try, now go back and keep studying that Makron cup, you might find another detail that supports your hypothesis, whatever the hell that is.

Grin

Back to top

My daughters can figure-8...

IP Logged

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #33 - Aug 22^nd, 2014 at 11:34am Not really, no. I don't like to be shouted down, especially when I have arguments and evidence. And I don't like ad hominem arguments. Anyone interested in how ancient Greeks and Romans slung may look at the material gathered in the earlier posts.
Back to top	IP Logged

Thearos

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Take that

Posts: 3410

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #34 - Aug 22^nd, 2014 at 11:51pm

So on the Makron cup, I already drew attention to two features: the small pouch or bag, with big stones, on the left arm, with a tactical load (hence the need for reloads somewhere behind the firing line); and the padded armour the slinger wears-- the armhole shows its construction (basically lots of layers of cloth: so quilted armour).

Another feature worth noticing is the position of his feet. He is standing sideways on to his target. The same position appears on the Balearic photograph from 1962 which I posted in my original discussion of the cup by Makron. There was some discussion, a few years back, of the general issue of feet and body positioning (again, by David Morningstar).

Back to top

IP Logged

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #35 - Aug 22^nd, 2014 at 11:51pm Note to moderators: this thread gathers some known evidence, adds some new evidence, and offers some analysis, on a topic which sometimes comes up. I would suggest making it a sticky, or sticking it in Mauro's register of threads about the history of slinging.
Back to top	IP Logged

Mark-Harrop

Funditor

Offline

cracker of zombieskulls

Posts: 553
worldwide
Gender: male

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #36 - Aug 23^rd, 2014 at 9:23am

OK, you win…

Artistic rendering and poetic accounts of derring-do should be used as technically accurate accounts of how soldiers employed the sling in a plethora of tactical situations.

Greeks all used helo….got it.

Lets examine the proper technique for riding combat roosters into battle next.

Roll Eyes

That would be more fun than this, and just as technically accurate.

Back to top

My daughters can figure-8...

IP Logged

Thearos

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Take that

Posts: 3410

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #37 - Aug 23^rd, 2014 at 1:48pm

Anyway, I was thinking about the Makron cup some more-- about the feet. The slinger is standing with left foot pointing perpendicular to the target, and right foot pointing away from the target. The result is that he stands with his back at 45 degrees to the target. Why ? Assuming the representation is realistic, there might be a reason for this-- namely to have a very long path-to-release and body torsion.

So here is how I interpret the slinging sequence involved here:

1. Look at the target, but with left foot pointing perpendicular to the target, and right foot pointing away from the target (your feet look like an inverted L). So you're looking at the target, but your body is turned away at 45 degrees (more than just sideways on, your left shoulder blade points at the target). Body weight on right foot.

2. Launch into your usual helo throw.

3. To shoot, use your whole body to unwind and and get the most out of the long path-to-release.

4. Your feet also rotate: on the HEEL of the right foot and the BALL of the left foot. You end up with both feet pointing forward, and with a weight distribution similar to a baseball pitch (with the right foot digging in).

I propose to call this style "real-Greek", or "Makron" style. My natural modesty would preclude calling this "Thearos" style.

More seriously, if correct, this would show that Gk vase painters try to represent dynamic body actions. I know of another vase where the slinger seems to run away from the direction she's shooting in (it's an Amazon) and suspect that this body torsion is what's going on.

Thanks to all for discussion of this. My work here is done, I know how to sling like a Greek. The feet and body were the last missing piece.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Aug 23^rd, 2014 at 5:55pm by Thearos »

IP Logged

Oxnate

Senior Member
Webmaster

Offline

Crus de agnus Dei con
quilon menthae.

Posts: 331
Minnesota
Gender: male

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #38 - Aug 23^rd, 2014 at 6:00pm

Thearos wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2014 at 1:48pm:

Anyway, I was thinking about the Makron cup some more-- about the feet. The slinger is standing with left foot pointing perpendicular to the target, and right foot pointing away from the target. The result is that he stands at 45 degrees to the target. Why ? Assuming the representation is realistic, there might be a reason for this-- namely to have a very long path-to-release and body torsion.

So here is how I interpret the slinging sequence involved here:

1. Look at the target, but with left foot pointing perpendicular to the target, and right foot pointing away from the target (your feet look like an inverted L). So you're looking at the target, but your body is turned away at 45 degrees (more than just sideways on). Body weight on right foot.

2. Launch into your usual helo throw.

3. To shoot, use your whole body to unwind and and get the most out of the long path-to-release.

4. Your feet also rotate: on the HEEL of the right foot and the BALL of the left foot. You end up with both feet pointing forward, and with a weight distribution similar to a baseball pitch (with the right foot digging in).

I propose to call this style "real-Greek", or "Makron" style. My natural modesty would preclude calling this "Thearos" style.

More seriously, if correct, this would show that Gk vase painters try to represent dynamic body actions. I know of another vase where the slinger seems to run away from the direction she's shooting in (it's an Amazon) and suspect that this body torsion is what's going on.

Thanks to all for discussion of this. My work here is done, I know how to sling like a Greek. The feet and body were the last missing piece.

And this picture? What does it tell us about how the Greeks fought?

It tells us that Ancient Greeks were obviously genetically superior to modern humans. Just look at the feet. He has his head turned 180 degrees from where his feet are walking. Obviously, all Greek warriors walked like this all the time since a painter once put it on a vase. It explains why the Greek Phalanx was so effective. People thought they were running away, and then they got stabbed by their spears.

Then there's this gem which will teach future amateur anthropologists everything they need to know about how amputees fought after losing a limb.

Back to top

Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine: 'Yea' isn't the word you want. It's 'yeah'. 'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me. Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.

IP Logged

Mark-Harrop

Funditor

Offline

cracker of zombieskulls

Posts: 553
worldwide
Gender: male

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #39 - Aug 24^th, 2014 at 2:55am

This is called the "passive-agressive, I will keep repeating the same thing until I declare victory when everyone is finally exasperated with my jackassery" technique. (or otherwise known as trolling)

He also rides a giant rooster into battle alongside his warrior satyr buddy.

Yeah Professor, your work is done… Roll Eyes

Maybe you have some of the people here fooled, but I'm not buying any of your B.S.

You are a wanna-be academic with no credentials who can't sling.

Prove me wrong. Your reply will be "I don't have to prove anything to you"…(the last refuge of a fraud)

Blowhards like you are the reason there is so much misinformation floating around the internet.

Go practice your "real-Geek" style…

Roll Eyes

(sorry, I don't do passive-agressive well)

Back to top

My daughters can figure-8...

IP Logged

Thearos

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Take that

Posts: 3410

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #40 - Aug 24^th, 2014 at 3:56am

Mr Harrop: sorry you took it this way. Every post I make, I try to bring something new: new argument, new way of looking at things, new data. In this case, the cup by the painter Makron seems to try to show something precise: the position of the wrist and the siting of the stone in the pouch suggest as much. I thought it was worth repeating, not so much for you, as for people perhaps joining the debate mid-stream.

The point about feet occurred to me lately: I always remembered them pointing towards the target, like a fencer-- in fact they work the other way around. I think this is a new finding-- hence my proposal to call this "Makron" style. It's a small adjustment in posture but it works very well once you get used to it.

[Edit: swapped place of this post with the one below, to answer Mr Harrop's post more directly]

Back to top

« Last Edit: Aug 24^th, 2014 at 6:55am by Thearos »

IP Logged

Thearos

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Take that

Posts: 3410

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #41 - Aug 24^th, 2014 at 4:00am

I just tried slinging "Makron" style. It works, and pretty well, too. It produces good power and accuracy. Shots slightly whangy for my taste.

Notes:
1. Sight picture: left eye peripheral, dominant eye, or full sight picture with both eyes ?
2. If the last, note that you risk a twist in the neck
3. The position looks a bit like the "Posta di Donna" (for snowcelt, who practises Fiore-style sword fighting).
4. This may be illustrated by I think a statue of David by Bernini.

Full version: see above
Shorter version: the "Makron" style involves turning your back slightly to the target, to get longer twist of the body when pitching. It may work with fig-8.

Perhaps everyone knew this here, but I just found this out-- by looking closely at a vase.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Aug 24^th, 2014 at 6:54am by Thearos »

IP Logged

Mark-Harrop

Funditor

Offline

cracker of zombieskulls

Posts: 553
worldwide
Gender: male

Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #42 - Aug 24^th, 2014 at 9:08am

Whatever man…fake apologies and the passive aggressive routine. Yawn…. Roll Eyes

Using a Greek vase painter with a fascination for erotica and a picture on a party cup as a basis for a "slinging style" is absolutely ludicrous.

You've been studying that Makron cup for how long? I see posts going back 5 years on the topic…you haven't brought anything new, just more of the same nonsense.

Lets sees a video of this Makron style… Grin

Oh yeah, you don't do video.

Convenient…

You didn't sling anything today except b.s.

Sorry bro, prove me wrong and I'll gladly apologise…and maybe add Makron style to my repertoire…

Unfortunately I violated internet rule#1…don't feed the trolls.

Back to top

My daughters can figure-8...

IP Logged

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #43 - Aug 24^th, 2014 at 9:42am The man in the stripy red top in picture no. 1 (Palestinian slingers) shows the twist to the back, to allow maximum unwinding. I've found the cup showing a slinging Amazon. Note that she's left handed, but I think it represents the same thing: a backwards turn, away from the direction of slinging.
Back to top	Palest_slingers_002.jpeg (44 KB \| 127 ) IP Logged

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #44 - Aug 24^th, 2014 at 9:43am Siinging Amazon (note to moderators: I think this pic is new on the forum, might get added to the pics section ?)
Back to top	BMSlinger_copy_001.jpg (49 KB \| 120 ) IP Logged