Slinging.org Forum - How did the ancient sling ?

Thearos

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #105 - Sep 19^th, 2014 at 8:31pm

(ANd of course, the C13th century Norwegian King's Mirror mentions slinging, as discussed on this forum)

(Another pleasant and useful diversion is to practice
throwing with a sling both for distance and for accuracy,
and with a staff sling as well as with a hand sling, and
to practice throwing stone missiles. Formerly the cus-
tom was for all who wished to become expert in such
arts and thoroughly proficient in war and chivalry to /
train both hands alike to the use of weapons. Strive
after the same skill, if you find yourself gifted for it, /
inasmuch as those who are trained in that way are the /
most perfect in these activities and the most dangerous /
to their enemies. )

But no description of slinging. I'm looking more generally for descriptions of slinging techniques, gestures, etc, in written sources.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #106 - Sep 19^th, 2014 at 8:37pm No mention of slinging in Norse sagas here http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/sagas.htm (a king called Ring-slinger does not count).
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #107 - Sep 19^th, 2014 at 8:59pm But this takes us away from the topic of the thread, which is the evidence for slinging technique in the ancient world.
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JAG

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #108 - Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:18pm

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 8:20pm:

But could you quote actual Icelandic sagas or Irish epic ? I.e. primary sources. What you're mentioning is people describing or paraphrasing them, found by a quick Google (one, I see, from a book of 1906), i.e. secondary sources. I would like to read actual ancient sources instead (comparable to the actual Greek and Roman sources I have quoted, with references). After that, we can worry about the details of transmission and recording.

So-- if any one knows of direct quotations from Irish or Scandinavian sources (for instance), or indeed any other textual sources. that describe the gestures involved in slinging, please post.

You really are a patronising %&$#

If you'd bothered to do a google search you'd have found the names of two Icelandic sagas, and some Irish legends. However as it was clear you couldn't be bothered I did that for you. Glad to see you took those bits of information I gleaned for you. No need to thank me. A simple patronising insult will do.

Now on the subject of secondary sources, as I said in my original, they all are. There are no primary written sources. They where spoken fables. Later written down by either Christian monks or christianised people. As such they are highly inaccurate and reek of patriarchy. References to women are down played or aligned with "evil" spirits. Strange how Odin is the prime deity, but his wife gets to choose the good souls first. Strange how the original Sabbath was named after her in English Friday (Frigg's Day or Freya's Day), yet the prime deity is given a day in the middle of the week.

Further, in a similar fashion most of your "primary" Roman and Greek sources, as numerous people have been trying politely to tell you, where written decades if not centuries after the events, by piecing togeather various handed down spoken versions. A produced by the tainted hand of biased views.

As for your painted flower pots. They are art. Not an accurate scientific instruction on how to use a sling, forge metal, fight naked or have mass orgies with bold fat ugly blokes with big noses.

Clear?

Twice you've patronized me in a reply. It will not happen again. My politeness prevents me from telling you from where to remove your head, nor what size painted Greek spitoon to replace it with.

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Thearos

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #109 - Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm

You don't know the difference between a primary and a secondary source. The information you gathered has absolutely no worth. Check the separate thread on slinging in Old Irish literature, where 10 minutes' searching got me 10 pages of primary references, and you might be able to start to understand the difference.

Let me spell it out for you. These are actual old Irish poems and chronicles, just as the Greek and Roman sources are actual historical sources-- which a historian knows how to treat critically (of course they may be later-- but some are technical treatises, and some are poems that claim realism in similes). In contrast, your googling got a couple of pages of modern secondary treatment, i.e. modern guys talking about original texts. That's a basic distinction.

How else are you going to find out how people slung in the past, if not by looking at sources and evidence ? Weird paganist convictions are going to cut the mustard. How else did the modern guys you quote find out about the past, if not by reading actual sources ? On this sub-forum, let us cut out the middlemen, and think about historical evidence.

No need to get anxious and aggressive if you don't know the historical sources. The internet is a great leveller-- you just have to go to the sources and look at them directly. That's how the people who are interested in historical swordsmanship go about it: they look stuff up and think about it.

In any case, I posted my question ("what about Irish sources ?"), in the hope that someone actually knew about them, for instance Snowcelt who used to frequent this forum.

And don't talk to me that way. Play the ball, not the man. Your contributions are mere clutter. So stay polite, stay civill and keep off subjects you don't know anything about, nor how to treat.

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JAG

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #110 - Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:12am

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

You don't know the difference between a primary and a secondary source. The information you gathered has absolutely no worth. Check the separate thread on slinging in Old Irish literature, where 10 minutes' searching got me 10 pages of primary references, and you might be able to start to understand the difference.

The information I googled because you couldn't be bothered gave you the name of two Icelandic sagas containing references to slings.

The rest is just the views of author of the source containing the information you desired. If that is worthless to you because the same information didn't come from the head of some over educated public school ponce, quoting a book he memorized from the classics of antiquity section of Eton library, well I guess thats your problem.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

Let me spell it out for you. These are actual old Irish poems and chronicles, just as the Greek and Roman

So tell me Sir, when did the pre-Christian Irish and Norse start to write? Or where these "original" documents written by a Christian observing the society he was once born into. Or was he writing his version of the tales once told him as a child, as he sat in his cold dank cell in Vatican City practicing his Latin? Or was he a fortunate waif taken in by a kindly Christian king, who taught him to write and asked him to record the "ancient ways" of his pagan breatheren?

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

sources are actual historical sources-- which a historian knows how to treat critically (of course they may be later-- but some are technical treatises, and some are poems that claim realism in similes).

Oh sorry. You're a propa istorian guv'na. What evers was I be finking. Me a lowely gobby cow and all. I begs your pardons sir...

Unless they are written by the hand of the poems author, at the time, they are not "primary sources". The Icelandic sagas where not written down by the people of that culture. They where spoken. As with the Irish tales and poems. All early textual versions of these fables are secondary sources.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

In contrast, your googling got a couple of pages of modern secondary treatment, i.e. modern guys talking about original texts. That's a basic distinction.

No. THAT is pompous academic snobbery. My googling gave me the names of two sagas that contained references to slinging. That was the information you asked for. The rest of the views expressed are of no importance, except of course that they are views of descendents living in the same environment, in the same society, writing their opinion of their cultural history.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

How else are you going to find out how people slung in the past, if not by looking at sources and evidence ?

Very true. I suggest you Google the two sagas I told you about.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

Weird paganist convictions are going to cut the mustard.

Interesting choice of words. Another example of living history contained in the phrase "cut the mustard". I digress because obviously that's just my weird paganist convictions again. Anyway,

So Friday isn't named after Freya/Frigg Odins wife?
Nor was Friday the original Sabbath day in many of the pre-Christian patriarchal religions of the Mediterranean, as it still is in Islam and Judaism?
And these living breathing aspects of our history that survive to today are just "Weird paganist convictions"? Not valid because they are not the written views of a Christian monk writing about a society he does not understand?

Let me ask you this oh wise sage of time. Are the 16th and 17th accounts of the peoples of the America accurate "primary" sources?

No sir. They are in general the biased and misguided views of highly religious people who believed their way of life superior.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

How else did the modern guys you quote find out about the past, if not by reading actual sources ? On this sub-forum, let us cut out the middlemen, and think about historical evidence.

I gave you the names of two sagas and poems for you to research. Of course your views as posted here will just be a modern guys view and will therefore be worthless. Isn't that what you are saying?

Your view is that of a "real" historian expressing his views on "actual" historic sources.

Their views have[sic] absolutely no worth because they are modern guys talking about original texts.

And my views are worthless just weird paganist convictions for quoting their work..

It surprises me that you ever manage to drag yourself away from that mirror every morning. I believe there's an ancient Greek myth about that sort of thing somewhere. I'll have to look it up.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

No need to get anxious and aggressive if you don't know the historical sources. The internet is a great leveller-- you just have to go to the sources and look at them directly. That's how the people who are interested in historical swordsmanship go about it: they look stuff up and think about it.

If I was interested in reading about slinging in Irish or Norse mythology I might. However I'm not, so I don't.

I gave you the names of two sagas and some Irish poems to do your own research. I didn't realise I had to hold your hand and read you bedtime stories too.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

In any case, I posted my question ("what about Irish sources ?"), in the hope that someone actually knew about them, for instance Snowcelt who used to frequent this forum.

Well I know a fair amount on pre-Christian northern European culture. Of course to you its all Weird paganist convictions
so you won't be interested.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

And don't talk to me that way. Play the ball, not the man.

Show me the man? I've just answered a question posted online only to recieve a patronising reposte. Again. I'm starting to see a pattern.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

Your contributions are mere clutter. So stay polite, stay civill and keep off subjects you don't know anything about, nor how to treat.

Oup, there you go again. So my views are mere clutter. Stay off a topic I know nothing about. Don't answer insult with indignation. These are your rules huh.

Here's a good "Celtic" response to that;

We don't condone that kind of language
CA

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« Last Edit: Sep 22^nd, 2014 at 6:21am by Curious Aardvark »

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Thearos

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #111 - Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am

Passing strange, and irrelevant, from the point of view of a man who openly admitted he knows nothing about slinging. Another rule: if you know soemthing about a theme, share it (high quality info and chapter and verse); if you don't know anything, find out about (with high quality research), or ask about it. Before that, just keep quiet.

Anyway, the point here is that the Greek and Roman material gives you some direct description of slinging technqiue, which is not present in Norse or Irish poetry.

(Slinging is mentioned about 500 times in Greek literature-- easy to check with online search engines. I've extracted a couple of references for this thread. This thread is more complete than most of the references you will get in published literature.

I'll see what a systematic review of Latin gives, if I have time.

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JAG

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #112 - Sep 20^th, 2014 at 4:35am

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

Passing strange, and irrelevant, from the point of view of a man who openly admitted he knows nothing about slinging.

First rule: Read all available information. Your blind assumptions lead to evermore rediculous statements. Check my gender marker Narcissus.

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

Another rule: if you know soemthing about a theme, share it (high quality info and chapter and verse); if you don't know anything, find out about (with high quality research), or ask about it. Before that, just keep quiet.

Well now Narcissus, how about the name of the saga and chapter? Oh wait, I gave you that. And the name of the principal character, a brief translation of the fable, and made the point that the Norse were not big on slings.

Irish a little more so.

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

Anyway, the point here is that the Greek and Roman material gives you some direct description of slinging technqiue, which is not present in Norse or Irish poetry.

Really Narcissus? You don't say.

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

(Slinging is mentioned about 500 times in Greek literature-- easy to check with online search engines.

You have got to be kidding me. So you slag me off for using Google then suggest using "online search engines". You're a few leaves short of a salad aren't you dumpling?

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

I've extracted a couple of references for this thread. This thread is more complete than most of the references you will get in published literature.

Wow that's a claim to fame. So this is the principle research source for information on ancient slinging techniques. Tell me Narcissus, who started this thread and who is the main contributor?

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

I'll see what a systematic review of Latin gives, if I have time.

You do that.

PS Just call me Nemesis

Quote:

In Greek mythology, Narcissus (/nɑrˈsɪsəs/; Greek: Νάρκισσος, Narkissos) was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae in Boeotia who was renowned for his beauty. He was the son of a river god named Cephissus and a nymph named Liriope.[1] He was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. Nemesis noticed this behavior and attracted Narcissus to a pool, where he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died. Narcissus is the origin of the term narcissism, a fixation with oneself.

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Oxnate

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #113 - Sep 20^th, 2014 at 1:37pm

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

Let me spell it out for you. These are actual old Irish poems and chronicles, just as the Greek and Roman sources are actual historical sources-- which a historian knows how to treat critically (of course they may be later-- but some are technical treatises, and some are poems that claim realism in similes). In contrast, your googling got a couple of pages of modern secondary treatment, i.e. modern guys talking about original texts. That's a basic distinction.

You've found actual technical treatises of slinging? Well go ahead and post them already! Please use the QUOTE or MARK & QUOTE buttons so we know that you're not just posting more useless poems and artwork.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

How else are you going to find out how people slung in the past, if not by looking at sources and evidence ? Weird paganist convictions are going to cut the mustard. How else did the modern guys you quote find out about the past, if not by reading actual sources ? On this sub-forum, let us cut out the middlemen, and think about historical evidence.

Because most of us aren't able to read classical Latin or Greek. Duh.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

No need to get anxious and aggressive if you don't know the historical sources. The internet is a great leveller-- you just have to go to the sources and look at them directly. That's how the people who are interested in historical swordsmanship go about it: they look stuff up and think about it.

Yes, except that there are actual Treaties for how to use swords. We don't rely on poetry or artwork to try to suss out how swords were used because instruction manuals are much better sources.

This is why we mock you for trying to use art as a primary source.

Thearos wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

And don't talk to me that way. Play the ball, not the man. Your contributions are mere clutter. So stay polite, stay civill and keep off subjects you don't know anything about, nor how to treat.

(Chokes on drink)

(wipes away tears)

Okay, I can breathe again. Grin

Thearos, you insulting someone for 'clutter'ing the forums is just too funny. Since you know neither how to use the MODIFY button or the QUOTE button, you have far more posts than are truly necessary to make your point and the rest of us are never quite sure if your replying to us or ignoring us to make new points as your replies almost never have anything to do with our post and never quote those you might be answering.

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

Passing strange, and irrelevant, from the point of view of a man who openly admitted he knows nothing about slinging. Another rule: if you know soemthing about a theme, share it (high quality info and chapter and verse); if you don't know anything, find out about (with high quality research), or ask about it. Before that, just keep quiet.

Ignoring the fact that you couldn't tell that JAG is female, you have no idea how much the rest of us want you to take your own advice there.

Thearos wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:18am:

Anyway, the point here is that the Greek and Roman material gives you some direct description of slinging technqiue, which is not present in Norse or Irish poetry.

(Slinging is mentioned about 500 times in Greek literature-- easy to check with online search engines. I've extracted a couple of references for this thread. This thread is more complete than most of the references you will get in published literature.

"Being mentioned" is not the same as being a quality source. Swords are mentioned thousands upon thousands of times in medieval literature. Even more if you count artwork. However, the surviving treatises are few. But those are the quality sources.

If you want to know how swords looked, sure you can use medieval art, but that isn't going to show you how they were actually used. And insisting that you have found a new style of swordsmanship based on medieval art will get you laughed out of any decent HEMA school.

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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine: 'Yea' isn't the word you want. It's 'yeah'. 'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me. Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.

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Oxnate

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #114 - Sep 20^th, 2014 at 1:45pm

JAG wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 4:35am:

You do that.

PS Just call me Nemesis

Quote:
In Greek mythology, Narcissus (/nɑrˈsɪsəs/; Greek: Νάρκισσος, Narkissos) was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae in Boeotia who was renowned for his beauty. He was the son of a river god named Cephissus and a nymph named Liriope.[1] He was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. Nemesis noticed this behavior and attracted Narcissus to a pool, where he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died. Narcissus is the origin of the term narcissism, a fixation with oneself.

Ooo!! Can I be Nimrod then?

Those of you who (like me) grew up on Bugs Bunny cartoons, probably think Nimrod means "Baffoon". However, Bugs was being ironic when he called Yosemite Sam Nimrod in the episode 'Rabbit Every Monday' ("I couldn't do that to the little Nimrod").

Nimrod actually means "Great Hunter".

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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine: 'Yea' isn't the word you want. It's 'yeah'. 'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me. Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.

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JAG

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Re: How did the ancient sling ?
Reply #115 - Sep 20^th, 2014 at 3:51pm

Oxnate wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

JAG wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 4:35am:

You do that.

PS Just call me Nemesis

Quote:
In Greek mythology, Narcissus (/nɑrˈsɪsəs/; Greek: Νάρκισσος, Narkissos) was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae in Boeotia who was renowned for his beauty. He was the son of a river god named Cephissus and a nymph named Liriope.[1] He was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. Nemesis noticed this behavior and attracted Narcissus to a pool, where he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died. Narcissus is the origin of the term narcissism, a fixation with oneself.

Ooo!! Can I be Nimrod then?

Those of you who (like me) grew up on Bugs Bunny cartoons, probably think Nimrod means "Baffoon". However, Bugs was being ironic when he called Yosemite Sam Nimrod in the episode 'Rabbit Every Monday' ("I couldn't do that to the little Nimrod").

Nimrod actually means "Great Hunter".

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Mark-Harrop Funditor Offline cracker of zombieskulls Posts: 553 worldwide Gender:	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #116 - Sep 21^st, 2014 at 10:24am The opening theme of Loony Toons always takes me back to my childhood….
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JAG Junior Member Offline Pussy Cat Posts: 80 GB Gender:	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #117 - Sep 21^st, 2014 at 12:03pm Sometimes I suspect you never left
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Rat Man Slinging.org Administrator Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 13682 New Jersey, USA Gender:	Re: How did the ancient sling ? Reply #118 - Sep 21^st, 2014 at 2:12pm Gentlemen, this is certainly a lousy way to clutter a forum with a lot of crap. I am locking this flame fight. In the future please do your bickering via PMs.
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