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Thearos

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Full on
Jul 25^th, 2014 at 7:06am

Went slinging yesterday, on the edge of a lake, with pebble beach. Most shots in my usual way-- Jaegoor-inspired, three rotations helo-style, then downwards slash, feet planted, hips rotating-- the style which Aussie taught me; shooting heavy-ish stones, in a controlled lob. The accuracy is OK, the power gives a sort of 50-60 m trajectory.

At the end, I tried shooting as I rarely do-- increasing the speed of the rotations until barely controlled, then release at 45 degrees. Full on whanging. The distances reached were much longer, but at the price of loss of control-- and elbow pain the next day.

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« Last Edit: Jul 25^th, 2014 at 6:50pm by Thearos »

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Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Full on Reply #1 - Jul 25^th, 2014 at 7:22am switch to fig 8 - it's easy on the joints, very accurate and a lot more powerful than helicopter. Or better yet for distance, balearic/sidearm is the best. hardest to be accurate with at power - but easily the best for making stones disappear into the distance And again - fairly easy on the joints.
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Full on Reply #2 - Jul 25^th, 2014 at 8:39am Fig. 8, with any power, hurts my shoulder joint, and it certainly cannot build up the big speeds and powers that helicopter can, because of the limited trajectory for acceleration.
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squirrelslinger

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Re: Full on
Reply #3 - Jul 25^th, 2014 at 11:28am

No, figure 8 is by far better than single or triple rotation helicopter.
There is quite a bit longer of an acceleration path- the sling is accelerated throughout the throw and especially at the end of the throw.
Recently I have been goofing around with very thin slings and my favorite has been 10 rotations or so building up speed, and the last one whipping around extremely fast before release.
gets insane distance.

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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #4 - Jul 25^th, 2014 at 5:16pm

Right, but those 10 rotations don't feed into a fig-8 ! Very high speed, always increasing, and whipping into the final insane speed is exactly the "edge-of-control" helicopter (or Balearic or whatever) style which I describe in my original post.

In contrast, fig-8 really has an acceleration from the dip on the left side of the body. It's only marginally more powerful than the static pseudo-"Greek", because the pouch has a longer distance over which to overcome inertia.

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Tomas Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Posts: 2172	Re: Full on Reply #5 - Jul 25^th, 2014 at 5:50pm The extra fast spinning is pointless methinks. It's the last spin that really counts. Plus if you're spinning the sling blindingly fast you are making it harder to control pretty much your whole throw. Try using just Byzantine(1 rotation) and I think you'll have decent results without all the superfluous spinning
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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #6 - Jul 25^th, 2014 at 6:59pm

No, no-- the extra fast spin really does make a huge difference ! And you have to build up to that with acceleration. Yurek slings this way, and so do Palestinians and Afghans in vids I've watched.

You are right, it is very difficult to control, or at least it feels so: I felt on the verge of panic, but in fact every shot went in the right direction.

Note that this is not how I usually sling-- I want to hit things I aim at, and for that I need control, and hence my usual shots are loosed with a level of power that reaches 30-50m max, with calm rotations, always three (2 to feel the stone, one for the shoot).

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Dan

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Re: Full on
Reply #7 - Jul 26^th, 2014 at 10:19am

Do you have some kind of tennis elbow? My dad actually has "machete elbow" from clearing out brush and I know that can really be painful with certain movements. A brace might help but I am not sure if you can sling with it on.

Regarding the actual slinging side of things, anytime you change something it will take some getting used to. You need to train yourself to get used to the sling going faster and the slightly narrower window of opportunity for release. Actually, the window is always the same, you just pass through it a fraction of a second faster. However, in my own experience, that extra bit of speed doesn't effect my accuracy. The point when it does is when you focus only on power and you just muscle your shots and forget your proper technique all together.

Regarding fast spin vs slow spin for helicopter. It really depends on the sling. Short Balearic slings with heavy stones can be swung pretty slowly because they carry their momentum well. Longer slings may actually hit the ground if you spun them at the same rate. I advise slow rotations with a hard power stroke for shorter slings, but for slings 42"+, faster rotations are much more permissible.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

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Mark-Harrop Funditor Offline cracker of zombieskulls Posts: 553 worldwide Gender:	Re: Full on Reply #8 - Jul 26^th, 2014 at 10:44am I'l go up against any of you helicopter heroes, any day…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnaRq42gXo4&list=UUnkk8PT_l7ARVQ3f-I9_dzg&index=1... Figure-8 all the way!
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Morphy

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Re: Full on
Reply #9 - Jul 26^th, 2014 at 8:51pm

Thearos wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

Fig. 8, with any power, hurts my shoulder joint,

That should be your first red flag right there. Either you have some kind of preexisting injury or are definitely doing something incorrectly. I can't remember the last time my shoulder hurt using the figure-8. If ever.

At this point I think it's fair to say that we have enough slingers that are using the figure-8 and getting good speed, accuracy and kinetic energy without any pain that it's not the style itself.

I think you would be well served figuring out what's going on with your throw that is causing this pain. It's a big slinging world out there and there are a lot of good styles. Cheesy

Just imagine if you could get much better speed, without the pain and with even better accuracy than your getting now. I know at least for me that would make it worth it.

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #10 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:32am

I can hit things with fig-8, and it's nice and controlled: I'm doing it right. The swinging behind the back bit hurts my shoulder.

But my point is not, here, to bury the fig-8, which is cute and may serve as a go-to style for backyard slinging. It is to note the long ranges reached by "extreme speed" slinging. The knack is getting the transition from ultimate, high-speed rotation to the throw. This is what war-slinging must have looked like.

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Mark-Harrop

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Re: Full on
Reply #11 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:07am

If I have 10 slingers well versed in the fig-8 and drilled sufficiently to be a cohesive fighting force on the battlefield, I will make quick work of an opposing force of 10 slingers who use the helicopter and are trying to get maximum distance…

Slingers were used in a variety of offensive and defensive operations. Volley fire can not be effectively controlled when the firers are spinning their slings around at different speeds…too hard to control the release and reload. The goal of volley fire is to put the max number of projectiles in the air simultaneously and deliver them to a known range.
When skirmishing, it would have been important to use cover, exposing yourself for as little time as possible when taking a shot….or when out in the open, the ability to shoot on the move.
Firing defensively from a crenelated parapet also requires a semi-vertical rotation and release, i.e. a fig-8.

Max distance and target slinging don't really compare to combat slinging…

Take baseball pitchers for example. There is a reason you don't see many sidearm pitchers who can clock over 100mph. Unfortunately, from what I've seen in my travels and training, kids from soccer/football cultures just can't throw as hard as kids who were raised playing baseball…the "weaponised" form of cricket. A lot has to do with the mechanics of the throw itself and the strength of the slinger, two things that can't really be overcome with rapid rotations…

I've played a form of "sling dodgeball" with tennis balls, both in a gym and outside on a football pitch, and guys using the helicopter usually got nailed when they were in their windup.

I'm not convinced a long sling can be spun any faster after multiple rotations than it can with one, good hard spin. Terminal velocity is just that…and wind resistance plays a big part, at least with the long slings I have messed with.

Lets see some video...

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My daughters can figure-8...

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #12 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 6:52am

Probably the fig-8 people would get nailed by people just throwing tennis balls at them. Fig-8 is nice because it removes the sideways deviation; Jaegoor's downward slash follows the same principle. But its use in gym "dodgeball" exercises rather confirms the difference between fig-8 (which Jaegoor calls "throwing") and war-slinging, with long slings, heavy ammo and very long distances. (At dodgeball distance, people fought with javelins, hand-thrown stones, both of which could reach 80m, and, it seems, arrows shot at close distance on straight trajectories).

Look at a vid of Yurek slinging, with the slow build-up to a final hurricane-speed loop and throw. That's what I mean.

War slinging: the best description is the well discussed passage of Xenophon, Anabasis-- the point is reaching long ranges. I earlier wondered if everything was taking place at shortish distances (<100m). But if everyone is slinging at formed bodies of men, with area fire, the ranges might have been very long indeed-- in which case, some form of multiple-rotation (sidearm, helo) operated.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Full on Reply #13 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:12am The only ancient textual evidence (a bit in Virgil, a bit of Vegetius, 2.23) is formal: the Romans (at least) took 3 rotations above the head as normal practice. (Vegetius prefers one).
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Morphy Slinging.org Moderator Offline Checkmate Posts: 8102	Re: Full on Reply #14 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 10:06pm Thearos wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:32am: But my point is not, here, to bury the fig-8, which is cute and may serve as a go-to style for backyard slinging. Really?
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