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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #30 - Jul 29^th, 2014 at 9:43am

This is the Makron cup, discussed here

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1254615254/0

It's the best image of a slinger from Greek antiquity. It shows a man slinging on the battlefield. He does not have a "waist to ground" sling, but a long sling, which needs the stone-seating gesture which people do in the Baleares (and which my authentic Balearic sling needs).

So war-slinging: long sling, longer than you're comfortable with, and super-fast rotations, faster than your're comfortable with, to get long shots.

Stop nattering on about the fig-8, get out of your fig-8 comfort zone and try this particular style-- if you have clearance. I guarantee you'll be surprised.

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Mark-Harrop

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Re: Full on
Reply #31 - Jul 29^th, 2014 at 2:00pm

I have tried every "style" there is, every sling length from a foot to about 8 feet, and have slung everything from gravel to bricks…and bolas, darts, flachettes….to include pole slings, kestros and some experimental stuff, like exploding bombs.

I have also seen ancient pictures on vases that depict creatures who are half human and half horse….infer what you want from that. Why, if the picture is accurate, would you want a bad hanging in the crook of your arm? It makes no sense whatsoever, especially if you are going to interpret the picture as historically accurate. You want to be able to load with your non-firing hand, not use it as a bag hanger, rendering it useless.

The slinger on the coin? He's about to get hit by a giant shuriken!

The picture of the "Balaeric Slinger" with the long sling? Don't see any that long used in their traditional competition, and we all know the traditional fig-8 can't be accomplished with a sling that will hit the ground on wind-up. Their sling has evolved to become "just right" for their version of target competition….thats why they all use the same "traditional" style sling and throw. They don't work so well with lead glands…unless you scale the pouch down accordingly.

"War slinging" encompassed many styles and tactics that have been the source of much speculation. Well regulated troops, like the Romans and Greeks would have standardised tactics and techniques that were regimented and disciplined. Clearly, using rifle-spun lead biconicals, which seem to be the most prevalent projectile, would have also demanded a regulated throwing style that took maximum advantage of their shape and weight. See the rugby ball analogy…

This "style" was probably unknown outside of the military who were trained and drilled regularly in the use of lead glands…and its hard to describe in words, hard to figure out after watching a video, and not very effective if you don't already know how to throw overhand with some proficiency.

Archers had relatively similar bows/arrows, and would all shoot on command. They didn't have "super-bows" that could outshoot their buddy's, and they didn't just shoot for max distance, on their own. They fired follies, at the same time…unless their ranks were disrupted for whatever reason.

Thats not to say that when opposing forces were camped out, waiting to go into battle, the champion slingers or champion archers wouldn't shoot some long distance shots at each other, complete with taunts and jeers…

…and no Balaeric slinger has engaged in combat in a long, long time. Now they just throw at a circle that doesn't throw back.

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #32 - Jul 29^th, 2014 at 4:38pm

The picture of the Balearic chap with a very long sling is from the 1960s, a working sling, not a target competition thing. That's what gives it extreme interest. I have a Balearic sling, woven by a lady who learned from her father. It's also very long (finger to opposite shoulder). Fig-8 is unworkable with these authentic slings. They must have been used with multi-rotations. The Makron cup is pretty realistic: look at the arrows, the pose, the turn of the hand, and the guy's padded jack, and the two javelins which are the slinger's "bug out" insurance (incidentally, Balearic slingers were also very good with javelins). No, this type of vase is extraordinarily careful in representing military equipment. Jaegoor was bowled over when he saw this.

I repeat that the one piece of literary evidence from the ancient world, Virgil, describes helo used specifically to sling lead.

Now fig-8 is pretty nifty (if you overlook the "badminton serve" finish). It's accurate and controlled. But to argue that "it was the ancient slingers' secret weapon" goes against the textual and visual evidence. Which is slim: I've rehearsed it here. But it does argue for long sling and multi-rotations. Which works best if you really put some oomph in it.

Warning: it's actually quite scary. You will also lift your back foot. And it's not hugely sustainable. And you really have to manage the intersection of high-speed and sweet spot well, to avoid over-extending your elbow. But it's fun, all-out, full-on slinging.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Full on Reply #33 - Jul 29^th, 2014 at 4:44pm Some chap posted a vid a while back, which gives a sense of what inspired me http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1398698027
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Mark-Harrop

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Re: Full on
Reply #34 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 6:23am

Too bad they never seem to hit anyone…so if those guys inspired you Cry

Undisciplined, intermittent random fire, poor technique, tactically unsound…is that how you picture the "combat slingers" of yore?

So, this technique you speak of, lets see a video of you actually using it…effectively. The proof is in the pudding my man.

I think your love of all things Balearic, and possibly an inability to crank out a good fig-8 might be the source of your bias.

The Makron cup picture is laughable at best. No one would hold their ammo pouch like that. Like I said, I've seen pictures of Centaurs as well, it doesn't make them historically accurate…or even real. Artist's renderings are just that…the guy on Trajan's column has a baseball size rock in a sling that looks like its about a foot long. What can we infer from that?

I've seen a lot of guys on youtube play around with long slings (50+ inches or 125+cm) and get some good distance, but hitting a human, consistently, at over 200m is a pipe dream. Thats why volley fire was used.

What size stone do you consider to be a "war stone"? Large stones are very limited in how far you can sling them…and a longer sling doesn't necessarily get you more distance, regardless of the style.
Diminishing return kicks in...

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #35 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 8:14am

Red-figure painted pottery does show centaurs, and satyrs. But when it represents realien (costumes, weapons), it can be shown to be archaeologically pretty accurate. The Makron cup must fall in this category: the gesture with the thumb and hand is just too accurate. The elbow basket (which is the ONLY representation, apart from Trajan's column of a slinger carrying projectiles), is tricky, but it's doable and must have its logic-- and it's a representation by a contemporary who actually must have seen slingers.

It is perhaps time to admit that no one really knows what a line of slingers fighting looked like. Pritchett (discussed in this forum) gathers all of the evidence; Thuc. makes it clear that slingers fight each other in skirmish lines, to prevent such lines from actually getting at the heavies. But from the oft-discussed passage of Xenophon, Anabasis 3 (again, an eyewitness and this case the man who commanded them). I think range matters.

How do I imagine war-slinging ?

1. Long slings, to achieve range. You want to exploit the sling's capacity to reach out.

2. Heavy projectiles, in the 200 g range, the "hand-filling stone" of ancient sources. This retains velocity and vanquishes drag.

2.a In some cases (but not that frequently), lead bullets.

3. Arranged in loose lines, perhaps in hedgehog formation, and shooting far. Sometimes firing as volleys, sometimes firing at will. Moving around. Going back to replenish.

3.a Shooting style is multi-rotational, side-arm or overhead, full-body, hurricane throwing

4. The target guys are getting pelted with big stones, landing dozens at a time (the bodies of slingers, in large battles, range in the hundreds), in their general area, clattering off shields and achieving wounds (not kills: Xen is clear about this, and there are many stories of guys getting hit in the head with sling stones and not killed-- which gives an idea of the range, btw).

5. I also imagine the "metaichmion", the no man's land, as peopled with lots of guys-- lines of slingers, bodies of archers which practice ammo discipline, bodies of javelineers coming close in leaps and bounds-- because of e.g. the battle of Rhaphia in 217 BC, where one man commanded both archers and slingers. Remember, in big battles, the front might be 1.5 or 2 km long.

5a Slingers have javelins (also on Ainianian coins) to throw at anyone who tries to creep up on them and jump them.

6. "Vaquero" style, to give "fig-8" its tradition Iberian style, belongs to the herder's repertoire, of relaxed, fairly close range slinging. It's nice for recreational slinging.

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2014 at 10:52am by Thearos »

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #36 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 8:17am

The Makron cup supports this picture of slinging (which is why various people, as soon as they're shown it, decry it-- oh no, it's a painting, it's a knock-off, hey what about Centaurs, and special pleading galore). It's the only representation of a slinger in battle from the "golden age of slinging" (500-200 BCE), with long war-sling, just out of range of his old enemy the archer, wearing sleeveless padded armour and a tactical load, and javelins for the midrange fight. View him with respect.

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2014 at 10:51am by Thearos »

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #37 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 10:51am

The question that bugs me, with this "long-distance" paradigm, is that of control and area accuracy. Lead bullets might shoot out 400m (Xen. again, and some members of this forum). Let's even say 250m-300m for danger zone, effective range. Heavy stones, say 200+max, so 180-200m danger zone. The long-range paradigm assumes that a good slinger can consistently land shots in that area, shooting full-on-- consistently enough to pepper a formed up body of men.

Is this conceivable ? If not, we should return to the "combat range" paradigm, where we have to scale everything down considerably from extreme range.

Even this, though, does not affect my broader points, the feasibility of long-range slinging with multi-rotational style, its usefulness in the particular context of war (for instance in sieges and even in opening stages of battle), and its superiority in range over the fig-8 which some people bizarrely insist on dragging into the discussion. For further enlightenment, I will read the posts of the guys shooting long distance right now.

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Tomas Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Posts: 2172	Re: Full on Reply #38 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 1:48pm I'm pretty sure some of us get better range out of the figure 8 than heli. I get about even from both but I think you're not giving it an unbiased judgment
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Teg

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Re: Full on
Reply #39 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 3:09pm

"Hard" data on distances, from people not involved in this discussion and hopefully with not too much exageration: http://slinging.org/index.php?page=sling-ranges

Let me quickly summarize it:

If you want to get rid of the "user bias" (personal ability, strength etc.) you have to look for persons who shoot different styles. There is only one data set with figure 8 and another style:
Stephen Fitzgerald 3/13/06 Smooth stone ~70g Oblique Greek 105cm ~180m
Stephen Fitzgerald 3/13/06 Golf ball 45g Figure 8 105cm ~190m
Stephen Fitzgerald 3/13/06 Lead egg 57g Oblique Greek 105cm 200m
Stephen Fitzgerald 5/15/07 1" steel ball 66g 105cm 212m

I let it up to you to interpret what "Oblique Greek" means.

Regarding maximal distance we have:

Jerzy Gasperowicz 2006 Bipointed, lead Sidearm 505m
FunSlinger 6/05 Stone ~85g Figure 8 208cm ~219m

As these are not the same projectiles here another data set.
Larry Bray * 1982 Stone 52g 130cm 437.1m
Style is not declared but I recall that I saw some youtube footage of him, where he shoots "sidearm". So I assume that this is sidearm aswell.

Good luck with your discussion! Stay calm and remember: Slinging shall make fun, not enemies Wink

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Thearos

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Re: Full on
Reply #40 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 5:09pm

I find fig-8 fundamentalism bizarre, and generally challenging dominant group-think seems a good idea. I also like precision when discussing historical evidence, and think special pleading when faced with inconvenient evidence is unhelpful.

May thanks to Teg. Impressive ranges for fig-8. Mr Scoteeball, as I pointed out earlier, also clocked a very good distance, with a long sling and very good technique (no slack).

Today I went shooting at my usual cliff face. 50 shots with sling 1, as long as my arm, in helo style, at a big target, 18 shots on target-- about my usual rate, or worse. I then took out sling 2, which I haven't used in a while-- a Rockman, long, from finger to opposite shoulder. It's a bit difficult to shoot; fig-8 is out of the question. You need to start it up with firm revolutions (otherwise the stone might slip the pouch-- disgrace), then build up to the hurricane revolutions, and the full-on release-- great energy, full-on whang. This is shooting the "longsling" the slinging equivalent of the longbow, the great war bow.

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Bill Skinner past-moderator Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 3292	Re: Full on Reply #41 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 5:47pm Another use for F8 is hunting. All the rotations get spotted by the game and the critter runs or flies off. Plus, that long sling tends to get caught on things. A short sling is much more practical in the woods.
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squirrelslinger

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Re: Full on
Reply #42 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 9:45pm

Thearos wrote on Jul 29^th, 2014 at 4:38pm:

The picture of the Balearic chap with a very long sling is from the 1960s, a working sling, not a target competition thing. That's what gives it extreme interest. I have a Balearic sling, woven by a lady who learned from her father. It's also very long (finger to opposite shoulder). Fig-8 is unworkable with these authentic slings. They must have been used with multi-rotations. The Makron cup is pretty realistic: look at the arrows, the pose, the turn of the hand, and the guy's padded jack, and the two javelins which are the slinger's "bug out" insurance (incidentally, Balearic slingers were also very good with javelins). No, this type of vase is extraordinarily careful in representing military equipment. Jaegoor was bowled over when he saw this.

I repeat that the one piece of literary evidence from the ancient world, Virgil, describes helo used specifically to sling lead.

Now fig-8 is pretty nifty (if you overlook the "badminton serve" finish). It's accurate and controlled. But to argue that "it was the ancient slingers' secret weapon" goes against the textual and visual evidence. Which is slim: I've rehearsed it here. But it does argue for long sling and multi-rotations. Which works best if you really put some oomph in it.

Warning: it's actually quite scary. You will also lift your back foot. And it's not hugely sustainable. And you really have to manage the intersection of high-speed and sweet spot well, to avoid over-extending your elbow. But it's fun, all-out, full-on slinging.

Most of my slings are from my middle finger on my left hand to my opposite shoulder.
I consider that normal.
Accuracy slings are from said finger to sternum, and tennis-ball slings for goofing off with friends are from middle finger to shoulder.
I do figure 8 with all of them.
I sometimes even do figure 8 with the 40-50" slings I use for distance.
Anything over 50" must use multirotations for me. I'm not super tall.

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Jaegoor Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 2811 Gender:	Re: Full on Reply #43 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 3:33am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z-b_c2YF-E long sling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiLrJ9qEcks&feature=youtu.be
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Mark-Harrop

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Re: Full on
Reply #44 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 5:50am

Elbow baskets? (maybe an early ad for Prada?)

200g (fist size) stones at over 200m? Lets see it...

"In some cases" lead bullets? (but not that frequently?)

Fig-8 fundamentalism? Vaquero style? Huh

Longsling=Longbow (the great war bow)? I take it you're not Turkish or Mongolian...

So you go to the same spot and shoot at the same target, over and over again? Like Balearic target shooters?
That is the same thing as going to the gun range and shooting at the same target, over and over again. It does not prepare you for combat. It prepares you for shooting a that target.
Having spent my entire life (from Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Light infantry, Special Forces and the Security industry) engaged in military training, to include primitive weapons as a lifelong hobby, I have learned a few things…

1. What is written in military manuals is only a guideline. You can read a manual on "Close Quarter Battle in an urban environment" that states "these guys did x, y, and z and they were successful" and then find out, in combat, that x, y, and z is suicide.

2. "Max range" and "max effective range" are two completely different things. An M-16 shoots 3600m, but its max effective range is about 400m (without optics).

3. Ancient, translated texts are unreliable and often propagandised… exaggerating the deeds of the victor.

4. Generals are not necessarily the best tacticians (or the most knowledgeable warriors) and Scribes can only describe what they see or what they are told. The same holds for artist's renderings.

5. Target shooting builds bad habits, unless you are a target shooter. Its static vs dynamic….target shooters stand still and aim at stationary targets, usually at fixed distances. Combat is dynamic...

6. In combat, command and control is essential. Uniformity and discipline are the cornerstone. If you have 500 slingers at your disposal, being able to direct accurate and overwhelming volley fire would be your first responsibility (they were ranged artillery in regimented armies) with skirmishing (smaller manoeuvre units) being the secondary task. As lead became the standard projectile, TTPs (tactics, techniques, procedures) would have evolved to take advantage of it. I've yet to see an article written by the great slinger Heroslingaclese detailing the correct procedure for slinging (the ubiquitous) lead biconicals.

7. To say "this is how General Badass used slingers in this battle" means nothing. Tactics are fluid and dependent on METT-T (mission, enemy, terrain, troops and time available). Historical records favour the large, decisive engagements. More battles went un-recorded.

8. The role of warriors and "tactical athletes" has changed very little over the millennia. We will adopt what works best…even if the "command" doesn't see the value in it immediately. Thats why the longbow gave way to the crossbow, and now we have the rifle.

9. There is no instance of a sidearm trebuche or catapult.

10. If you can't throw overhand, you probably can't sling overhand either.

11. Re-enacators don't play for blood. Its mostly cos-play.

12. I've yet to see a supposed sling "expert" on TV who can sling worth a damn…and historians can't agree on anything because they would never get a paper published.

13. There is no one style, or one sling type that works for everything. A true warrior has no favorite weapon.

14. I think some of the hemp slings around here are being smoked... Wink

No video=it didn't happen (its 2014 for crying out loud!)

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