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Ponerology (Read 10884 times)
Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #30 - Sep 21st, 2014 at 8:44am
 
Eoraptor, if you have read the book and understood it then you would would not deny my statement so easily, if you have not read the book then you are just offering your opinion.
The book stands for itself.
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"Do what thou will"Shall be the whole of the law."love is the law, love under will"
 
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JAG
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #31 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 3:09am
 
Quote:
Ponerology. PSYCHOPATHS: ALMOST HUMAN. Introduction

Like a color blind man incapable of distinguishing red from green, a small minority of the human population cannot experience or fully comprehend the normal range of human emotions. And like those color blind who may conceal their condition by using the correct words while not understanding their meaning (e.g., the top traffic light is “red”, the bottom is “green”) - so does this minority conceal their condition by playacting an emotion's exterior signs (facial expressions, exclamations, body language). However, they do not actually experience the emotion in question. Their deception is revealed in the laboratory, where they respond to words like DEATH, CANCER, DISEASE, as if they were DAY, CREAM, or PAPER. They lack the ability to comprehend the emotional “punch” that certain words contain. They use others’ emotional reactions as cues, and they adjust their behavior to portray the correct ‘emotional’ behavior. (Hare, 129-30)

These individuals are known as psychopaths. Not only can they not feel the pain of others, they often seem to deliberately cause others pain. Lobaczewski refers to this disorder as an “essential psychopathy” to distinguish them from others with deficits in their genetic/instinctual endowment, essential psychopathy being the most severe and disturbing.

Many so-called “antisocial individuals” acquire similar characteristics in their life-time, whether caused by brain damage to certain areas of the brain, or functionally, because of close contact with and influence by such individuals. Lobaczewski terms such individuals characteropaths. The vast majority of both these groups cannot change. The acts that we call evil (especially on a macrosocial level) can be traced back to this deviant minority of human beings and the effects of their actions on their family, friends, and society.


These are possibly two of the most disturbing sentences I have ever read. In short all of the evil acts that has ever been committed are, apparently, the fault of those deemed as psychopaths.

What I find really disturbing is the first highlighted sentence. Why? Because all people "use others’ emotional reactions as cues, and [sic] adjust their behavior to portray the correct ‘emotional’ behavior." There's even a word for this. It's called body language.

Some people place total emphasis on the "words" that a person uses. That is after all how language is taught. However, for those with language difficulties, those "classed" as dyslexic for example, this formalised emphasis on words seems unnatural and unnecessary. Reading people is after all significantly more accurate.

In addition, body language is the natural way that all species communicate emotion. A baby cries, a lover smiles, an adult laughs. Yet ponerology claims that emotion is expressed best in words? Strange when the spoken word accounts for 5-15% of communication, and body language the rest. If not, why when devoid of receiving the subtle signs of body language, for example in a email, do we need such things as emoticons?

If I say "F'you" to a friend in a bar whilst laughing and smiling, they know it is not an insult. If I write F'you in an email without an emoticon, chances are they'll read that differently.

As such the foundation of this theory is flawed. Its true aims exposed. A convenient way to blame a minority group within society for all the evil that occurs.

Ironically, that's kinda evil itself  Huh
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #32 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 8:29am
 
you are reading a lot in a few lines, yes we communicate mainly through body language, but i have only ever met one expert in it. most people don't pick up on cues, or the clusters of cues usually given in any situation.we seem to rely on words over what the visual cues are telling us.
The fact that you are disturbed by these few words probably means you are not a psychopath.
I kept throwing the book at the wall because my belief system was challenged and i didn't like it,but i continued to read and placed it in the context the author was talking about and while not happy about what i was learning i was still grateful that i learned it.
i don't like to think of myself sticking my head in the sand because i don't like what i see, and if anything this knowledge has made me less of a victim/target/prey.
Given that there was a group of them that started this project and he ended up being the last one alive over the years, after all they went through i think he was a brave man.
It is up to each of us who read his book to decide for themselves as to weather he is a fraud or not. Smiley
 
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JAG
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #33 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 11:20am
 
Ajax wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 8:29am:
you are reading a lot in a few lines, yes we communicate mainly through body language, but i have only ever met one expert in it. most people don't pick up on cues, or the clusters of cues usually given in any situation.we seem to rely on words over what the visual cues are telling us

Exactly. Most people tend to ignore their instincts when the words being spoken are contradictory. However each one of us uses body language all the time. The only difference is the expert can verbalize the cues via their conscious, whilst for most it remains a subconscious process.

Now considering the tendency for humans to override the more subtle but more powerful body language. To believe whatever they are being told dispite their "gut feeling", and reread this phrase in an introduction to ponerology.
Quote:
Like a color blind man incapable of distinguishing red from green, a small minority of the human population cannot experience or fully comprehend the normal range of human emotions. And like those color blind who may conceal their condition by using the correct words while not understanding their meaning (e.g., the top traffic light is “red”, the bottom is “green”) - so does this minority conceal their condition by playacting an emotion's exterior signs (facial expressions, exclamations, body language). However, they do not actually experience the emotion in question. Their deception is revealed in the laboratory, where they respond to words like DEATH, CANCER, DISEASE, as if they were DAY, CREAM, or PAPER. They lack the ability to comprehend the emotional “punch” that certain words contain. They use others’ emotional reactions as cues, and they adjust their behavior to portray the correct ‘emotional’ behavior. (Hare, 129-30)

These individuals are known as psychopaths.


This phrase says that anyone who ignores their instincts, ignores the body language they're seeing, and only acts upon the words they are hearing or reading; these people are normal and all others are psychopaths responsible for all evil.

Now ask yourself this question. How can it be that a society can believe what they are told, and that the genocide being committed all around them is good?

Ponerology.
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #34 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 7:13pm
 
Have you read the book? the paragraph says that they lack the ability or cannot experiance empathy, not as you say ignore it.
To "ignore" is not the same as "lack" or "cannot".
If more people paid attention to their instincts or gut feeling instead of limiting themselves to just hearing or seeing, things would be somewhat better than they are.
As to your last question on how can it be that society thinks on genocide to be good, i can only answer that you should pick up any good book on the history of empire building nations and it will be self evident.
Or the history of oil, or the usa, england, israel, australia, or pretty much any nation in the west. you can go further back if you want and choose any culture you want, its all depressingly the same.
Read the book or don't, its ok to be afraid.
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #35 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 11:18pm
 
Ajax, you do know that the book is an opinion piece?
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #36 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 1:33am
 
Isn't everything?
Our current understanding of life was based on (opinions)theory of scientists, these change from time to time as we get better information about the world and universe we live in and have to be changed as we go.Try quantum physics Smiley
Or the weird poopy our sun is doing right now, both of these two things are rewriting the books as we speak!
Just because the man was a layman, does not render his observations any less valid, why should it?
Who here has not met people who have all kinds of book learning yet know nothing of the real world.
To pretend that people who have letters after their name are somehow better able to understand the world around them than those who don't is a dangerous mindset that only blinds you from the facts as they present themselves. Would you discount the evidence of a shepard boy who can't read but who could consistently hit and kill with his sling because that was part of his life experience, or would you take the word of a hobbiest intellectual who has no real experiance with the sling but has a passing intrest and a phd?
Would you tell a newbie slinger to read everything he can about slinging, or after a little advice tell him to get out there and get some first hand experience?
Accurate observation of the conditions that one finds oneself in coupled with real world experience are what count.
I have read his book, i have met people as he has described them and i have learned a great deal from his words.I started this thread because it was an intresting topic and plainly a lot of people feel the same.(debate is healthy)
I make no defence of the man or his academic qualifications except to say that he is obviousley well read, and had an oppertunity to study something first hand.
His intelligence cannot be denied.
I have found common ground with some of what he is saying, some of it i am still working through and that's ok.
And i may stumble accross something else next week that may change the way i think again.In order to cure my ignorance i will take knowledge wherever i can find it.But one should never shoot the messenger. Smiley
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wanderer
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #37 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 3:26am
 
As I understood it the author was a professional psychologist. Here is an interview that might cast some light on his point of view shortly before his death in 2007.

http://www.sott.net/article/159686-In-Memoriam-Andrzej-M-obaczewski

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Re: Ponerology
Reply #38 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 8:21am
 
Quote:
A system thus envisaged would be superior to all its predecessors, being based upon an understanding of the laws of nature operating within individuals and societies, with objective knowledge progressively superseding opinions based upon natural [emotional] responses to phenomena. We should call it a "LOGOCRACY".

Due to their properties and conformity to the laws of nature and evolution, logocratic systems could guarantee social and international order on a long-term basis. In keeping with their nature, they would then become transformed into more perfect forms, a vague and faraway vision of which may beckon to us in the present.


That to me is a contradiction if ever I saw one. Train people to overcome emotional responses, to act purely on logic, because this is a more natural way of things?

What *&^%^$

It is the manipulation of logical thought and argument that is the root of evil. It is those that are in tune with their emotions that suffer more the curse of poverty. Emotional understanding is oneself is the root of empathy for others. Not cold logic.
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Bikewer
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #39 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 9:38am
 
So.....We should become like Vulcans?

I just recently re-read The Evolution Of Consciousness by Robert Ornstein.   Pretty good read on the subject.
Ornstein points out that the rational portion of our brains, the cerebellum, is a relative newcomer in evolutionary terms.   That underlying this structure is all of the "old brain" that we have accumulated over millions of years.
This would include all the structures that evolved to keep us alive....The emotional responses are all survival adaptations.   
These things are all deeply part of human nature.  Try though we may to mitigate and control them, they remain a very important part of how and why our brains work to begin with.
Much of what we think of as "rational thought" is conditioned by the subliminal and subconscious processing by the rest of the brain.

Recent research has shown that we actually make most decisions subconsciously, and that this information filters through our consciousness in such manner that we think we didn't......

Now here's the rub.... Ornstein points out that we are trying to cope with a crowded, complex, civilized world with brains that are essentially the same as the ones our primitive ancestors used to hunt and gather with.

Many of the traits that ensured the survival of our ancestors are now downright counter-productive.     And that's where Ornstein's book falls down, IMO... For he recommeds that we modern humans must indeed "change our minds" in order to handle the complexities of modern life....But he offers no concrete way in which this happy goal might be accomplished.
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #40 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 6:45pm
 
I would not like to live in a world devoid of passion, and verve.
i think that common sense and passion for life can go hand in hand.
But i would like to see more of a socractic type of education taught to our kids with universal respect for the world we live on and the beings we share it with.
But it is what it is and we do what we can to remain humane.
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #41 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 6:48pm
 
Wanderer,I stand corrected as to his qualifications, thankyou Smiley
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #42 - Oct 6th, 2014 at 5:15pm
 
Obama!, what the hell America! what's this guys problem?
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #43 - Oct 7th, 2014 at 7:18am
 
Huh?
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Ajax
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Re: Ponerology
Reply #44 - Oct 7th, 2014 at 6:42pm
 
Yet another drawn out, expensive, war.
This guy makes Bush look like a peace loving stoned hippy!
My friends, how does this sit with you? War being waged in your name, while your civil rights are being taken away in the name of terrorism.
All because of the greed and power hungry of the few. Angry
I have many friends and relations in Canada and the U.S.A.
I have asked them and some are scared, some don't see a problem, and some don't care, and a few don't even understand.
One however who is very sharp and well placed in the industry and is usally a warhawk has surprised me in saying that the current domestic shortage in common rounds of bullets will continue for the forseeable future and has nothing to do with market forces, better get your sling into swing!
A google search on ammo shortages does indeed tend to support this.
I guess my question is this, when is a war supportable? if ever Undecided
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