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Greek Coin Slinging Style (Read 6461 times)
Themistocles
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Greek Coin Slinging Style
Apr 4th, 2014 at 2:06am
 
I think the conventional interpretation of the Greek throwing technique, based on the old coins, is incorrect and thought I'd share my theory.

One observation I had that convinced me of this was the remarkable similarity between the slingers pose on the coin and the last phase of a figure 8 style throw. If you were to stop the figure 8 throw halfway through the rotation behind the back, it would look very much the same as the starting position for the slinger on the coin. The right hand is cocked back with the palm forward, the cords are behind the head, the pocket is pointing at target and the left arm is entended forward.

The Greek throw would start as shown on the coins. The cords, however, would have to be behind the head. The execution of the throw would be identical to the second half of the figure 8. The sling would initially drop down behind the back and come up and over on the right side, all in the same vertical plane.

This technique can only be done with cords behind the head. This matches the images on the coins and makes sense to me. Other details that also seem to support this are the orientation of the feet. Also, on a fair number of the coins, the foot on the back leg starts on the ball of the foot. I found this also to work well in power generation.

In short, I believe the greek thow was a shortened version of what is commonly called the figure 8. Basically the second half of a figure 8.
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Tomas
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #1 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 5:36am
 
Ok so you're saying instead of the rotations being horizontal, they are vertical and in the same plane as a figure 8 throw? I've slung like that before and it does work well. Although having tried it I find the figure 8 easier and you get the same results. Interesting theory but hard to prove.
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David Morningstar
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #2 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 11:58am
 
Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2atj_FM0AjA

I like this style a lot. It is very quick into action. It rifle spins the projectile every time. It needs very little room to either side so you wont interfere with other slingers or soldiers. It is very accurate side-to-side.

I think your analysis is probably right  Cool
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Themistocles
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #3 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 3:03pm
 
Yes, David. Very much like your video. Smiley

A few details from the coin tipped me off on the vertical vs horizontal rotation. The first was the feet. On the coins both feet are pointing at the target. On several of the coins, the back foot is resting on the ball of the foot, like a sprinter waiting to start. This stance is very strong in direction of the throw. Image a sprinter on the starting block. You face him try to push him backwards. He's very strong in this plane and can easily resist. Push him from the side, and he'll go over easily. He is not set up to resist a lateral force.

Similarly, a slinger with their feet like this would be very strong front to back but very week side to side. He is ideally set up to generate power with a vertical rotation. He would not be able to generate as much power from a horizontal rotation.

The other clue was I noticed that some of the images the sling was not held perfectly horizontal but with the pocket slightly elevated. For a throw starting out horizontal, this would make for a non-ideal start. The payload and the applied force would be out of alignment. You would not get full tension on the cords from the start.

Having a slight elevation at the starting point, however, makes perfect sense if the initial rotation is in the vertical plane. The payload is perfectly aligned with the applied force. Exaggerating the elevation can also potentially add more power to the final throw.

One last thing I've tried to experiment with is power generation. I started with the sprinter's foot position. (back foot on the ball) From here I rocked back on the heel of the rear foot and ended with the throw with the back leg on the ball again. Minimal movement. My feet were in the same spot the whole time. I did notice a boost in distance.

Will keep playing with this. I've got to make some clay ammo next. Smiley Also, I've got some ideas on increasing rate of fire but want to experiment a bit more.
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ArchaeoMan
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #4 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 3:15pm
 
That is the style of throw I used in my thesis experiment. It does work very well and can also be adapted slightly to be a more sidearm throw if that's your preference.

I actually modified this slightly, based on a baseball pitcher's movement. So basically, instead of leaving the feet in place, you can start with the left foot (if you are right handed) back and a bit behind the right foot. This way you can accelerate the whole body towards the target and get a bit more velocity. It may not match the coins, but it does work.

At least for me, this style gave significantly better velocity than underhand or balaeric styles. I think the numbers were about 43 m/s for this style, 37 for Balaeric and 33 for underhand.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #5 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 9:42am
 
AM, how long was your sling and how heavy was your projectile?

Themistocles, I think you may be correct, also.
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Themistocles
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #6 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:42am
 
Funny you should mention sling length, Bill. This was the original question that got me to looking a the Greek coin images more closely.

AM can we access you thesis online? Sounds interesting.
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Mark-Harrop
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #7 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 2:39pm
 
It's too bad they didn't have Youtube back then  Wink

It's been my observation over the years that relying on non-military sources to accurately describe military tactics and procedures yields poor results. For example, an untrained non-slinger, witnessing a skilled slinger using a good fig-8 technique, will probably be unable to accurately describe the procedure. It happens so fast, it appears similar to an overhand throw, like a baseball pitch. They will be missing the crucial step, the rotation behind the head...
A second hand account, relayed by someone with a limited vocabulary to someone with enough education to write the procedure down, will probably miss even more detail.

Even modern-day military training manuals, complete with pictures and descriptions written for grunts can yield interesting and varied results when put into practice.

The pictures on the Greek coins, to me, look like they are standing in the ready position. A highly regimented military like the Greeks would have had a "by the numbers" system for teaching the sling. I would be surprised if they didn't use the fig-8, it makes the most sense if you have to train a bunch of slingers lined up in a long row.

I'm sure the commands were similar to modern rifle training…load, aim, fire.

I would love to have a time machine, just to see what they were really up to...
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My daughters can figure-8...
 
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #8 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 7:32pm
 
The projectiles ranged from around 25 to 55 grams, but the velocity quoted is corrected to an average of 37g.

The sling was 71 cm (when loaded). This is a bit shorter than others use, and probably isn't really optimized for speed. If using this style though, there is a maximum length based on the distance between the hand behind the head and the extended hand.

The velocities topped out near 50 m/s, but others here have reported higher velocities, 60 m/s seems possible with this or a figure-8 style, even with the shorter slings.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #9 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:26am
 
MH, you are very correct about interesting results from POG's reading and then trying infantry tactics.  Words were probably too small.  Or something.  Grin

You have to keep in mind that some type of military training was mandatory for pretty much all the upper classes for the Greeks, while a lot of them wouldn't have used it, it would have been a weapon for someone below their station, they would have know how to use it and how to train and  slingers.

And I also think that you are correct about having a by-the-numbers way to throw.  They would have to know how to teach it to others and then use the quickly trained slingers in battle.  You could use a group of quickly trained townsmen with slings for defending the walls of a city, for example.

And you would teach them to throw in a style where massed slinging made up for lack of individual accuracy, sort of the Brown Bess of the Bronze Age.
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Themistocles
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #10 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:57am
 
Mark-Harrop wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 2:39pm:
It's too bad they didn't have Youtube back then  Wink

It's been my observation over the years that relying on non-military sources to accurately describe military tactics and procedures yields poor results. For example, an untrained non-slinger, witnessing a skilled slinger using a good fig-8 technique, will probably be unable to accurately describe the procedure. It happens so fast, it appears similar to an overhand throw, like a baseball pitch. They will be missing the crucial step, the rotation behind the head...
A second hand account, relayed by someone with a limited vocabulary to someone with enough education to write the procedure down, will probably miss even more detail.

Even modern-day military training manuals, complete with pictures and descriptions written for grunts can yield interesting and varied results when put into practice.

The pictures on the Greek coins, to me, look like they are standing in the ready position. A highly regimented military like the Greeks would have had a "by the numbers" system for teaching the sling. I would be surprised if they didn't use the fig-8, it makes the most sense if you have to train a bunch of slingers lined up in a long row.

I'm sure the commands were similar to modern rifle training…load, aim, fire.

I would love to have a time machine, just to see what they were really up to...


Would love to have a wayback machine as well. The fun of these speculations for me is that the the biomechanics of the human body are the same and we can test out theories. We will never know for sure what was done, but can we make good guesses based on what would work. For example, I think it highly unlikely that this starting position was used with an underhand cast. Wink

Baseball pitching mechanics are an interesting analogy to slinging. I think the figure 8 is like a full windup pitch and the coin style is like a stretch pitch. In both cases, the latter part of the throw is identical. (Most of the power is generated here.) Also, the longer versions take more time but may generate slightly more power.

But again, like all modern sports involving throwing a ball, you get a multitude of thechniques and styles that are highly effective: softball underhand, cricket bowling, etc.
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ArchaeoMan
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #11 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 3:40pm
 
"Would love to have a wayback machine as well. The fun of these speculations for me is that the the biomechanics of the human body are the same and we can test out theories. We will never know for sure what was done, but can we make good guesses based on what would work. For example, I think it highly unlikely that this starting position was used with an underhand cast. Wink

Baseball pitching mechanics are an interesting analogy to slinging. I think the figure 8 is like a full windup pitch and the coin style is like a stretch pitch. In both cases, the latter part of the throw is identical. (Most of the power is generated here.) Also, the longer versions take more time but may generate slightly more power."

I definitely agree with the first point. Have you read Finney as well?  Wink (If not, its a 2005 PhD thesis and he interpreted this position as the starting point of an underhand throw.) I know very little about biomechanics but it's definitely a promising avenue for future research.

As to the 2nd point, I really wish I had practiced with the figure-8 technique and could therefore compare it to the style we've been talking about. Referring to the two as a pitch from the windup and from the stretch seems very accurate, but so far I haven't seen a direct test. As the weather improves I can try to get proficient in figure-8, but its unlikely that I'll be running any more measured trials in the near future. If using the sling in a volley-fire tactic, (especially with less-trained users, like in the Brown Bess analogy) I think the simpler overhand style would be preferable to the figure-8.
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Themistocles
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #12 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:37pm
 
ArchaeoMan wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 3:40pm:
"Would love to have a wayback machine as well. The fun of these speculations for me is that the the biomechanics of the human body are the same and we can test out theories. We will never know for sure what was done, but can we make good guesses based on what would work. For example, I think it highly unlikely that this starting position was used with an underhand cast. Wink

Baseball pitching mechanics are an interesting analogy to slinging. I think the figure 8 is like a full windup pitch and the coin style is like a stretch pitch. In both cases, the latter part of the throw is identical. (Most of the power is generated here.) Also, the longer versions take more time but may generate slightly more power."

I definitely agree with the first point. Have you read Finney as well?  Wink (If not, its a 2005 PhD thesis and he interpreted this position as the starting point of an underhand throw.) I know very little about biomechanics but it's definitely a promising avenue for future research.

As to the 2nd point, I really wish I had practiced with the figure-8 technique and could therefore compare it to the style we've been talking about. Referring to the two as a pitch from the windup and from the stretch seems very accurate, but so far I haven't seen a direct test. As the weather improves I can try to get proficient in figure-8, but its unlikely that I'll be running any more measured trials in the near future. If using the sling in a volley-fire tactic, (especially with less-trained users, like in the Brown Bess analogy) I think the simpler overhand style would be preferable to the figure-8.


I've not read Finney. I was able to find a copy on the web and will have a look. I found another interesting paper from the U of Nebraska. Would that be your's perhaps? Another interesting read.

Not sure which would be the easiest to learn, but I'm beginning to think of these as essentially the same throw. I like the terms figure-8 and half-8.
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #13 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:19am
 
The one from UNL is mine. Finney's paper actually isn't too bad, he just falls into the same traps that a lot of academics do when they are evaluating a thing that takes skill and practice to perform well. Unfortunately that makes the experimental component of the piece pretty un-usable, but he has lots of other discussion that is pretty interesting.

Figure 8 and half 8 sound pretty good. I've had problems communicating what the style was before, and this seems to cut through those issues.
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Re: Greek Coin Slinging Style
Reply #14 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 10:32pm
 
Enjoying your paper. Smiley I think you are right on Finney. This is where I like the practice of competing ideas and experimentation to test them against on another.

I half wonder if it would be possible to develop a sling notation, similar to the Mao-Fink notation used to describe ways to tie a neck tie. Basically describes direction (out/in) and position (left, right, center). Much more complicated for slinging, but might work with some tweaking.

Or, perhaps I'll just stick with figure-8 and half-8. Wink



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