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Demons (Read 3664 times)
Morphy
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Re: Demons
Reply #15 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 3:39pm
 
These questions on the paranormal will never end. Instead the goal posts will continue to be moved further and further to fit with what is accepted so that the mainstream can maintain it's title as the custodians of truth.  Or at least that which is perceived as truth. I guess in some cases that is the more important of the two. If demons were ever found to exist they would immediately be rebranded as interdimensional entities whose goals and motivations run contrary to our own. Within one or two generations anyone who remembered the incredible resistance to the idea of demons by the scientific mainstream would have forgotten it in a haze of obfuscation. The same would happen if tomorrow it became irrefutable that we are being visited by extra-terrestrial intelligences. Science would quickly claim it as it's own and all those who have spent their life saying there was no evidence would flip to the other side so fast your head would spin. This is not a jab at debunkers, it's just what happens. Over and over. It is what it is, as they say.

"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves.
What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
TL;DR version "Truth lies in interpretation"


I realize I'm going out on a tangent here, but if "Truth lies in interpretation" is there no absolute truth? There's a philosophical question for you.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Demons
Reply #16 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 4:02pm
 
It's a good question Morphy. The short answer is "yes I believe there are absolute/ultimate truths"  the long answer gets long.

The main thing that short quote means to me is that truth lies (is found) in interpretation. A line of data is just a line, it is our interpretation of that line that can take us to truth about an underlying process.  I like that it can also mean "lies" as in "deceives" in our interpretation. You can use data that are true to argue for something false. So it also serves as a warning.  Smiley
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Bikewer
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Re: Demons
Reply #17 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 5:02pm
 
It's a fundamental point of science that upon being presented with better evidence, the paradigm must change.   No one disputes that.
When the idea of continental drift was put forth many years ago, much of the science community involved in the various aspects of "Earth Science" pooh-poohed the idea. 
"Nonsense," they said, "Continents can't move...."

But within 50 years of the original iteration of the idea, it's now accepted fact.  "Plate Tectonics" is the paradigm of how all this works; beautifully confirmed by accurate measurements made by geosynchronous satellites.

Science is an "accretive" thing; a gradual refinement of our view of the universe.   
Also, it's not a thing or an institution but rather a method; a method of examining the testable and observable.    The untestable and unobservable is not properly the purvey of science.
Now, science can comment perhaps on the probability of things, of claims of the paranormal, for instance.
Take telekinesis.   No one has proved that this supposed ability does not exist. 
However, we can say with surety that it has never been observed under controlled conditions, and that individuals making the claim to be able to do so have all (when subjected to proper protocols) been proved to be either frauds or delusional.
So it may well be as you say, that some fellow might pop up tomorrow who can float bricks around his head using only the powers of his mind, and then we'd have to consider re-writing all the physics books, as no force known to science could account for such phenomena.
However, the probability of such person appearing seems very low indeed.    The late Isaac Asimov used to use the term "vanishingly small".
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Demons
Reply #18 - Apr 18th, 2014 at 8:44am
 
No it's not. It's a fundamental fact about science that the paradigm will change. The smartest prof I knew (who started me down the path of statistics) told us "old ideas don't die- the scientists do. Or stop publishing which is the same thing".  When the shift between the ptolemic and the heliocentric occurred neither disproved the other, both accounted for the observed facts (and we now believe with errors in both stories), but the newer generation preferred the heliocentric. The changes do have something to do with evidence but also much to do with culture and popularity. We see this in the fact that Noam Chomsky is said to have "won" with his answer to B.F. Skinner's "Beyond Freedom and Dignity". Chomsky didn't touch Skinner's arguments- but Skinner's behavioralism was too extreme for most scientists. Fact for fact and argument for argument there was no contest- Skinner was the better scientist. Just not as popular.

The "science does change- that doesn't disprove science it PROVES it" is the standard fall back. I don't know that it actually gets you anywhere. It's an attempt to avoid the charge of formalism and keep science from becoming unrecognizable. But ultimately it boils down to the statement:

"Current science may be wrong- but it will become the correct method and that method will uncover the truth of everything that can be known. Because of this I believe in science (and those who speak for it) now, and if it changes then I will believe it then because it is closer to the True Science."

And that makes it a matter of faith. And that's not a bad thing. I only object when that faith (dubbed 'scientism' by some) is held to not be faith but "Truth" and anyone who disagrees as a rube, a fool, a simpleton, or an atavism.

If there's one thing I've learned from all my reading its "Trust engineers more than Scientists"

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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Demons
Reply #19 - Apr 18th, 2014 at 9:06am
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Apr 18th, 2014 at 8:44am:
If there's one thing I've learned from all my reading its "Trust engineers more than Scientists"

Well, you're screwed. Wink

As for me, I believe in the supernatural in the same way that I believe in doctors. Never had what I would call a demonic encounter, however.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
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Bikewer
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Re: Demons
Reply #20 - Apr 18th, 2014 at 10:30am
 
Arthur Clarke had something to say on this, in agreement somewhat with Perpetual Student, his "three laws":

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

These are a bit tongue in cheek but have a grain of truth.   One of those truths is that the scientific method is performed by humans and humans are often fond of their pet ideas and reluctant to change.
Pons and Fleischer are still trying desperately to prove "cold fusion", we are told.  Who knows, perhaps they will succeed.

But the bottom line is that the paradigm does, in fact change, the books get re-written, and our view of phenomena gets more and more refined.
The Higgs Boson was put forth as a hypothesis when I was in high school, in 1964.   
It has taken 50 years, and the expenditure of huge sums of money, to confirm it's existence.   

Some ideas are greeted with greath enthusiasm, only to fall into the dustbin of history.  Some are likewise strongly accepted only to run afoul of political or religious considerations.

My viewpoint on all this is pretty much materialist/reductionist.  I don't believe in the "supernatural".  There is no evidence, but I understand that there are very powerful psychological and cultural reasons for widespread belief.
I think that all the mysteries of the universe are, in fact, discoverable.   The universe may be complex, but unlike human beings, it isn't sneaky.   
One may criticize science for it's tendency towards politics and human failings, but look how wonderfully successful it's been!

I'm 67.  When I was a kid, we had a mechanical/electrical phone on a "party line".    We had a fuzzy, black and white television which received one channel.   Going into "space" was literally science fiction.

One might argue that our advances in these areas are in fact the products of technology, the work of the engineers described above.   However, those engineers were working with the discoveries of the basic research of science.
(James Burke makes this distinction... Science for the basic discoveries, technology for the practical application)
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Morphy
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Re: Demons
Reply #21 - Apr 18th, 2014 at 2:29pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Apr 18th, 2014 at 8:44am:
"Current science may be wrong- but it will become the correct method and that method will uncover the truth of everything that can be known. Because of this I believe in science (and those who speak for it) now, and if it changes then I will believe it then because it is closer to the True Science."

And that makes it a matter of faith. And that's not a bad thing. I only object when that faith (dubbed 'scientism' by some) is held to not be faith but "Truth" and anyone who disagrees as a rube, a fool, a simpleton, or an atavism.


Exactly. For all my seeming "anti-science" sentiments, for me this is what it all comes down to.  Ultimately this isn't a problem with the method as much as it is with the human beings trying to implement it.

Data, like children, doesn't come with instruction manuals. It's not always possible to know if data is being interpretated correctly. Or if data that has been disregarded as irrelevant was disregarded because of one's inability to face the conclusion it would inevitably lead to or because it was actually irrelevant. At least there is no way to know for those in the present. Hindsight is a little clearer.

I see the True Believer and the True Debunker as two sides of the same coin. One doesn't seek more knowledge because it would show a lack of faith. And the other can't acknowledge their faith because it would show a lack of intelligence.

In both cases what is possible is decided first and that shapes one's acceptance of facts. The only change comes when the institution or individual they have put their faith in tells them it is acceptable to think differently. In which case their status quo once again shifts in line with the institution's status quo. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. And history continues in much the same way it always has.
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Rat Man
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Re: Demons
Reply #22 - Jun 14th, 2014 at 1:27pm
 
I was living in hospice when this thread was around so here's my late entry:
   We have our own family spirit/demon/whatever that haunts us by stealing our personal processions. Here's just one small example of hundreds.  My dad was working on my car in the garage a few years back. I had some insurance papers in my hand and I went up to talk to dad.  I laid the papers on the side of my Jeep inside of the garage, talked to Dad for a bit, turned to grab the papers, and they were gone.  I had never moved my feet and Dad had never come near the papers.  We searched the entire garage several times and to this day those papers are no longer of this earth.  Stuff like this happened all the time to Dad, then me, and now Kate, my daughter.  Sometimes the items are returned.  We'll search the apartment for hours for something to no avail.  Then suddenly it'll be there, in the middle of the livingroom floor where we couldn't have missed it if it was there before.  Marie always thought it was the ghost of a small child playing  tricks.  Kate things it's something much more demonic and dangerous.  I don't know but I wish he'd leave my stuff alone.
    Bikewer, you have a right to your opinions and I respect your intelligence but I find that too much "logic" is just as bad as believing in every crackpot superstition that comes down the pike.  There are things that simply can't be reproduced and studied in a lab.  Also, science is not a static thing.  Ideas that were once preposterous become fact and vice versa.  I like to keep an open mind.
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