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Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing

Lobbing    
  6 (12.8%)
Throwing (flatlining)    
  21 (44.7%)
Both have their place    
  18 (38.3%)
I like to kick rocks.....    
  2 (4.3%)




Total votes: 47
« Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:20am »

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Lobbing vs. Throwing (Read 45084 times)
Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #300 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 3:19am
 
Hallo Jaegoor,

Man hat hier zwei Parteien. Die eine ("whangers") behauptet, die beste Art, zu scheudern, sei, mit voller, 100%, Kraft und geradlinig auf das Ziel zu schleudern. Die andere ("lobbers") behauptet, dass es besser ist, mit weniger Kraft, aber besserer Kontrolle zu schiessen; aber da der Schuss schneller sinkt, so muss man auf einer Kurve schiessen.

Die Whanger glauben also, dass immer mit maximaler Kraft geradlinig zu schleudern der einzige Weg ist, dass man so besser lerne und übe, und so könne die beste Leistung erreichen.

Ich, und andere, wie der Masia., glauben das einfach nicht, und geben Argumente dafür.

Aber sicherlich hattest du das schon gut verstanden-- und erstaunst nur, warum solche Leidenschaft aus beiden Seiten ? Bin auch nicht sicher. Mag sein, dass die Whanger glauber, dass auf einer Kurve zu schiessen eine Mangel an Virilität verrät.
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« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2014 at 5:27am by Thearos »  
 
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #301 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 3:23am
 
Mr Marauder says:

"there is no benefit of "dialing it back" even if it is marginal"

My own experience is that whanging leads to lots of wide shots (3 out of 4 shots are misses at 25 m on a big target), even if the shots are in the general quadrant, and reducing the power a bit leads to better control (3 out of 4 shots are on target at 25 m on big target, often well centred shots).

Looking, not at showreels of best shots, nor at the offerings of the very skilful Mr Marauder or Yurek, but regular joes practising or trying out the sling, I see similar experiences.

What do you think, folks ?
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Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #302 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 4:13pm
 
As you all have noticed, I am a member of the flat-lining faction. However, there is a point where there is "too much" effort. If you tear the tendons in your shoulder, and throw yourself to the ground on every shot, you should probably bring it down a notch. Not to the extent of making your slinging look like an egg toss (I'm sorry lobbers, but it really does), but just to have strong controlled slinging at 80-95% power (such as the flat-lining shown in the videos I've shown in previous posts).

Masi, if your definition of flat-lining is 100% power, then pretty much nobody flat-lines. However there is still a distinct difference between this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJv0LJqd9Y and this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEuVnZq2BMA (distances are about the same, ammo is about the same, accuracy is similar, trajectory is far different- no visible arc in the second video).

Most wouldn't say that the latter slinger is "out of control" or "throwing crazy shots because of the immense amount of power in each throw", nor would they say that it is a "show reel of best shots" because they are consecutively filmed.

What I'm getting at is it seems you are making flat-lining something it isn't in order to make lobbing more appealing. Which is why I feel the need to defend real flat-lining (a legitimate method of slinging accurately, yet also with authority) as has been seen in the many videos I posted.


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"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #303 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 5:17pm
 
That's why using the same amount of power at all ranges is and has been part of my definition for lobbing. I'd also say that 100% effort is the maximum you can do without being likely to hurt yourself. More than that exceeds what the human body was designed to regularly endure and therefore exceeds 100% effort.

I expect that there are far more whangers as compared to lobbers despite what the poll suggests.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #304 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 6:51pm
 
Sling, swan, lob
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #305 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 7:04am
 
Hallo Thearos. Vielen Dank für Deine Übersetzung. Ja ich habe schon verstanden worum es geht. Doch denn Streit selbst verstehe ich nicht. Beide Parteien haben Recht. Nur stehen sie auf dem Weg des schleuderns an verschiedenen Positionen. Leider übersetzt der Computer nur sehr schlecht die Diskussion. Aber ich möchte ein paar Worte dazu sagen.
Jedes schießen auf der Erde folgt denn Gesetzen der Ballistik. Verwende ich leichte Geschosse ist die Flugbahn flacher. Aber gerade ist eine Flugbahn nie. Das erkannten schon Menschen vor uns. Englische Bogenschützen verwendeten sehr schwere Pfeile. Warum taten sie das? Weil Kraft gleich Masse mal Beschleunigung ist. Ihre Pfeile erreichten ihre höchste Wirkung im Fallen. Das ist bei der Schleuder ganz genauso. Jedoch es gibt auch Gemeinsamkeiten zwischen Bogen und Schleuder , welche nicht so schnell zu erkennen sind. Ich kann zwar mit voll Power schießen. Aber kann die Schleuder diese Kraft auch aufnehmen und übertragen? Nein das kann sie nicht, oder nur bedingt.
Ich denke dass die Schleuderfunde aus Haithabu bekannt sind. Man fand einen mehrfach geschlitzten Lederbrief. Spannend daran, man fand das selbe Modell in Schleswig (ca. 200 Jahre später als Haithabu) und man fand das selbe Modell auch in Norwegen. Bei allen drei Briefen war eine Beschädigung am Lederbrief zu finden. Ich selbst habe viele Jahre mit diesem Modell geschossen. Immer voll Power. Und es gab sehr häufig die gleiche Beschädigung wie bei den archäologischen Befunden. Immer an der Seite des Schusslaufes kam es zu einem Abriss am Lederbrief. Ein befreundeter Ingenieur  erklärte mir, dass die auftretenden Kräfte an dieser Stelle einfach zu groß sind. Ich fand eine Lösung für dieses Problem. Eine einfache Perle aus Knochen oder Horn war in der Lage die schädliche Energie zu kompensieren. Ein weiteres Zeichen ist. Zuviel Power beim Schleudern schadet der Gesundheit. Bei einem früher und bei anderen später. Selbiges gilt auch für andere Sportarten. . Sehr viele spanische Schützen leiden an Schmerzen. Hauptsächlich im Hand, Ellenbogen und Schulter Bereich. Ich habe auch Luis Livermoore darüber klagen gehört in Spanien. Und Lui trainiert sehr viel in einem Fitness Studio. Lui ist wirklich ein großartiger Slinger. Doch Gewinner des internationalen Turnieres war er nicht. Das war Juano Caballero. Ehre dem Ehre gebürt sage ich. Iljasud und Yurek sind beide ebenfalls sehr Kraftvolle Slinger. Ihre Ergebnisse in Spanien sind bekannt. Sie fehlten ebenso oft wie viele Spanier welche voll Power schießen. Die Kunst im Schleudern liegt an der richtigen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Technik und Ausrüstung. Was nützt Dir volle Power wenn man nicht trifft. Meine Erfahrung zeigt, dass sich die Kraft mit der Zeit von selbst verbessert. Doch das eigentliche Augenmerk sollte immer das Ziel sein. Immer volle Power gibt mir auch keine Gelegenheit meine eigene Technik zu verbessern.  Bin ich aber in der Lage meine Technik zu verbessern, wird auch meine Kraft sich mit der Zeit verbessern. Einen Bogensportler fängt auch nicht mit einem 100lbs Bogen an. Sein Zuggewicht wird deutlich geringer sein. Bei einem Bogen ist es recht leicht das Material zu verbessern. Niemand kommt auf die Idee einen 100lbs Bogen mit Pfeilen mit einen Spine Wert von 20 zu schießen.
Es gibt also einen Optimalwert zwischen aufgewendeter Kraft, Munition/Gewicht)und  Schleudermodell.
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #306 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 9:41am
 
Jaegoor, I think the computer has done well at translating the argument.
Jaegoor wrote on Jan 11th, 2014 at 7:04am:
Englische Bogenschützen verwendeten sehr schwere Pfeile. Warum taten sie das? Weil Kraft gleich Masse mal Beschleunigung ist. Ihre Pfeile erreichten ihre höchste Wirkung im Fallen. Das ist bei der Schleuder ganz genauso. Jedoch es gibt auch Gemeinsamkeiten zwischen Bogen und Schleuder , welche nicht so schnell zu erkennen sind. Ich kann zwar mit voll Power schießen. Aber kann die Schleuder diese Kraft auch aufnehmen und übertragen? Nein das kann sie nicht, oder nur bedingt.

That's exactly what I have said in other threads about the relationship between force, momentum, and kinetic energy and what I've said about slings being inefficient. You obviously know what's going on.
Jaegoor wrote on Jan 11th, 2014 at 7:04am:
Ja ich habe schon verstanden worum es geht. Doch denn Streit selbst verstehe ich nicht. Beide Parteien haben Recht.

Bill also said that both ways of throwing can be useful. Why do you think that if many Spanish slingers suffer from pain? I think that Luis Livermoore hurting himself favor lobbing.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #307 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 11:23am
 
Sling inefficiency-- another interesting topic
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #308 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 6:43pm
 
If your sling cracks when you throw, you may not be throwing with full force but you aren't lobbing, either.
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...and now, No. 1, the
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #309 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 10:05pm
 
I'm going to try to revive this thread, hopefully to the vexation of some persons Wink

I'm curious what your thoughts are, Jauke, regarding throwing full power, vs not full power with your different sling designs that you've been discussing (I'd even say as far as advertising)

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #310 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 10:16pm
 
  Back in 2013 I originally voted for throwing.  These days I think both flatlining and lobbing have their place.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #311 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 11:11pm
 
Three things.

IronGoober, you've vexed me because now I have to read through a 21 page thread that I didn't know existed.  Wink

"Vexation" is a fantastic word.  This needs to be worked into common speech again (assuming it was at one point).

And I voted both.  Like Rat Man said, I think both definitely have their place.  Do you want to attack from the front, or from above?  Smiley
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #312 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 4:38am
 
Both. And I'm not reading through 21 pages Cheesy
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #313 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 5:23am
 
Just read most of these 20+ pages at 3am. It seems I need to reasses my life choices.

Much of this thread was people talking past each other. No good discussion can take place when people are using differing definitions. That and there was some definite sh*t stirring going on by persons unnamed lol. Funny thread though.

Before we revive this topic perhaps we should come to an agreement on what is meant by lobbing vs. flatlining.

To me lobbing is a considerable arc at lower distances.Flatlining would be lower trajectory at those same distances. Flatlining does NOT mean all out balls to the wall throws as you would in raw distance slinging. This was one of the false assumptions being made and it distracts from the issue.

As was brought up multiple times in this thread erroneously, lobbing has NOTHING to do with how hard a stone is hitting. Yes we can all find a way to throw a massive stone slow and it’s going to hit like a truck, still lobbing.. This is a speed issue and I have no idea why so much emphasis was put on impact when that has nothing to do with whether a shot is lobbed or flatlined. The question here is speed and how much or little trajectory is going on and if there’s any benefit from one way or the other.

The lobbers in this threads main point was that you can be more accurate with it than flatlining. They kept wanting to say you lose accuracy throwing 100% which might be true but is aside from the point since flatlining does not require 100% of your power. Never has.

To me it really comes down to just a few things- One, if power is the question, do both sides have enough power to kill? Yes, good moving on, nothing else needs be said about power.

Two, does slow throwing, high arcing at short distance throws (lobbing) offer an advantage in accuracy over slinging at say 75- 80% of full power? I’ve seen no proof of that. We’ve seen excellent slingers of both varieties.

Three, if lobbing doesn’t offer a provable definitive benefit does flatlining offer any? I would say yes, a few that are objectively provable. For example on a moving target it’s easier to hit if you don’t have to lead as far. Less arc so less potential for missing in elevation. And in hunting less time for an animal to react and move. Believe it or not I’ve had many a squirrel dodge out of the way of a stone that was flying towards it. It happens, so something to keep in mind.

Anyways those are just some points that came to mind. My opinion is that within a certain range you can be just as accurate throwing with less arc vs more arc. I’ve seen good examples of both. But one thing is for sure this thread didn’t change many minds. The best thing it offers is some very subtle and not so subtle trolling. Well done gents, 10/10.  Grin
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #314 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 8:26am
 
Clearly there is a definition problem when lobs and flat shots are both on the same continuum. The other problem is all of the highschool-level physics is a major distraction. Oversimplification, followed by red herrings about wind resistance and aerodynamics conversations that have nothing to do with the question.

Here’s my suggested compromise: You’ve got two hands. Most of us own two slings... how about both at the same time? (We DEFINITELY need a debate about whether long slings or short slings or one of each will be best for this Grin)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery#MRSI

This sounds even more challenging than the nail challenge!

... and to satisfy Morphy’s love for subtle trolling, I suggest that we honor the original thread by naming this new online challenge “the lobber-whanger-cornhole challenge”

Any takers?


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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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