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Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing

Lobbing    
  6 (12.8%)
Throwing (flatlining)    
  21 (44.7%)
Both have their place    
  18 (38.3%)
I like to kick rocks.....    
  2 (4.3%)




Total votes: 47
« Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:20am »

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Lobbing vs. Throwing (Read 45085 times)
Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #285 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 12:17pm
 
Whanger: I hit hard
Lobber: I hit hard too.
Maths wiz: if you whang a light stone (a) and lob a heavy stone (b), the heavy stone generates more force when it hits
Whanger: yes, but I can whang (b)
Lobber: Then you could lob b+1, even heavier.
Whanger: I'm happy as I am.
Lobber: Me too
Whanger: Yeah but could you hunt that way ?
Lobber: Maybe.
Whanger Yeah but could you fight that way ?
Lobber: Sure.
Whanger: Better to whang.
Lobber: Why ?
Whanger: It generates more force.
Lobber: No, it doesn't necessarily.
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English_Marauder
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #286 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:07pm
 
lobber: I cant learn to flat-line so I will argue that lobbing is better. that will make me sleep at night...
flat-liner: just have patience....stop arguing and develop your skill....
lobber: maybe I'm not strong enough to flat-line?
flat-liner: get stronger, to obtain proper form.
lobber: lobbing is accurate right? I mean I saw 1 or two videos where the guy hits something.....yeah it must be...
flat-liner: the videos proving flat-linings accuracy vastly outnumber the videos that show accurate lobbing.remember consistency is accuracy.
lobber: thats not true because I say it isn't.
flat-liner: good luck becoming an advanced highly accurate slinger.
lobber: I will surly need it. 
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #287 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:17pm
 
Actually, the most attractive thing about lobbing is its consistency, as compared to all over the place whanging. If done right, it really is THE ZONE.
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #288 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:22pm
 
Mr Marauder writes:

"flat-liner: the videos proving flat-linings accuracy vastly outnumber the videos that show accurate lobbing.remember consistency is accuracy.
lobber: thats not true because I say it isn't."

-- That's actually the rub. Some of the Balearic vids show whangers missing with their strong shots. It also has to to with a lot of quite experienced slingers lately coming to discover lobbing as a good, mature way of slinging. It's not much slower than whanging, and generates great power, retains consistency because it stays relaxed, and hence creates the space for control and accuracy.

My prediction is that each slinger, once they've been in the game for 5+ years, as their body gets used to it, will move to lobbing. Except for noobs; and then the debates will start again.
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #289 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:30pm
 
For listeners who have just joined our program:

Lobbing means you want to be accurate, so shoot a mite slower; since you shoot that bit slower, shoot heavier (both to keep energy, and because it gives heft to your shot); since you shoot slower and heavier, give mind to drop.

Whanging means letting her rip at the target. Some guys have a lot of talent for it. But I must admit that my slinging (since boyhood) has always evolved towards lobbing, whenever I've been doing it intensely (say for a few years).
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #290 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:23pm
 
To a previous post, if you can lob b+1 I still guarantee I could flat line it harder. When you get to b+20 (somewhere over 2lbs, we've all tried to throw those giant stones that we shouldn't) you can't bend you elbow anymore and apache or pirouette is the only option, and even lobbers wouldn't be able to accurately throw or use clean form anymore.

"Whanging" is really just strong slinging (75-100% power), its less relaxed, though not less accurate. Lobbing is relaxed slinging with heavy ammo. If both styles are using the same ammunition (even if it is heavy) strong slinging (flat-lining) will generate more force than relaxed slinging (lobbing). Every. Time.

Thearos wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:22pm:
Mr Marauder writes:

"flat-liner: the videos proving flat-linings accuracy vastly outnumber the videos that show accurate lobbing.remember consistency is accuracy.
lobber: thats not true because I say it isn't."

-- That's actually the rub. Some of the Balearic vids show whangers missing with their strong shots. It also has to to with a lot of quite experienced slingers lately coming to discover lobbing as a good, mature way of slinging. It's not much slower than whanging, and generates great power, retains consistency because it stays relaxed, and hence creates the space for control and accuracy.

My prediction is that each slinger, once they've been in the game for 5+ years, as their body gets used to it, will move to lobbing. Except for noobs; and then the debates will start again.


Everybody misses at some time. I repeatedly show videos of accurate flat-lining yet you continue to assume that whangers always throw all, over the place, erratically "all over the place". Nothing could be further from the truth, yet you keep reiterating your "inaccuracy" point, despite the evidence which shows flat-lining to be more accurate than lobbing. It is more relaxed, I'll give you that. However, I still have yet to see an example of a superior lobber, and I still feel relaxed and at peace when I'm flat-lining.

While EM, is new to the game, he is still one of the best slingers I've seen (don't let it go to your head EM  Wink ). Yurek, Camo-sling aka Smabber and I have all been slinging 5+ years, yet we still are all apparently ignorant and immature despite our strong and accurate slinging. The Balearic Sling World Champion, Luis Pons Livermore, who has been slinging quite actively most of his life and is one of the best slingers on the planet, continues to flat-line with authority. Your argument here is invalid.

Also, controlled flat-lining is a "mite" slower, lobbing is way slower for increased control, which doesn't really help that much. Flat-lining also gives mind to drop, just at further distances and with shallower arcs.

Lobbing: Very relaxed slinging with heavy stones.
Flat-lining: Strong, yet controlled, slinging with any weight stone and any style. The vast majority of slingers evolve towards this style. (more than double the amount of lobbers, see poll above)

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #291 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:33pm
 
Thearos wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:17pm:
Actually, the most attractive thing about lobbing is its consistency, as compared to all over the place whanging. If done right, it really is THE ZONE.


I will say it again, the proof just isn't there.

Thearos wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:22pm:
-- That's actually the rub. Some of the Balearic vids show whangers missing with their strong shots. It also has to to with a lot of quite experienced slingers lately coming to discover lobbing as a good, mature way of slinging. It's not much slower than whanging, and generates great power, retains consistency because it stays relaxed, and hence creates the space for control and accuracy.

also highly inaccurate as the champion Balearic slinger is a flit liner. "livermore"

Thearos wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:22pm:
My prediction is that each slinger, once they've been in the game for 5+ years, as their body gets used to it, will move to lobbing. Except for noobs; and then the debates will start again.


this Thearos proves to me that you do not understand the human body very well. The longer you practice a physical sport the more your muscles develop, and strengthen allowing you to add more, and more power into whatever it is you are doing. running, jumping, slinging, etc.... 

lobbers(which are far and few between) have no proof to support their claims of superior control and better accuracy. this is a fact.

there are only a few thing in slinging that a person can improve, accuracy, power, and distance....

flat- lining produces all of these.... 

lobbing may only only produce power at short range with unconventionally heavy ammo. consistent accuracy will not develop, and distance will not develop.

Thearos, where are your videos to show us your unequaled accuracy and crushing power? your great wisdom? your more mature prestigious way of slinging. Please......... this is a weapon....learn to use it as such, and stop trying convince the majority...  The men arguing for flat-lining have proven these concepts in videos. many videos.   
 
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #292 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:41pm
 
Dan wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:23pm:
While EM, is new to the game, he is still one of the best slingers I've seen (don't let it go to your head EM  Wink


thanks Dan. I never stop training for improvement. Cool
faster
harder
farther
more accurate

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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #293 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:02pm
 
English_Marauder wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:33pm:
The men arguing for flat-lining have proven these concepts in videos. many videos.

Videos have proven that you can sling and that you can hit the target. Nothing else. Same for lobbing.

Here's my definition of lobbing, again:
  • Not using 100% effort, because speed and too much effort will erode form.
  • Not changing the amount of effort between throws for any reason, because consistency is key for good form.


You want to go for distance, aim higher. Don't throw harder. I am convinced that 90% of the time that Dan is doing what I call lobbing and only does what I call whanging when he's going for huge distances.

Projectile momentum vs KE was brought up because you said that you'd choose a lighter stone to get a flatter trajectory if you were going to try to sling for a very long distance. There is no advantage to throwing a lighter stone to get a flatter trajectory if you'll just practice enough to instinctually account for bullet drop. (But I concede that we lobbers misunderstood your statement. I remember you correcting us.) That's why Thearos is saying that lobbing is accounting for drop and whanging is just letting it rip.

Then there was a lot of guessing about how much the projectile's mass would affect  the velocities we achieve with our throws that was never adequately resolved. To my definition of lobbing, it's irrelevant since you aren't trying to say that ultra-light stones are necessary for whanging. That part only matters if we get back to arguing about the best weight of projectile to choose.

A slinger with great form can get great results from whanging away at a range that works for them. That's you. But lobbing can produce better form because the throw is more smooth and can produce better accuracy at all ranges because of more consistency. Saying, "The longer you practice a physical sport the more your muscles develop, and strengthen allowing you to add more, and more power into whatever it is you are doing," misrepresents the argument. Thearos and I are talking about a smaller percentage of effort. We aren't saying that people will be putting less total effort into the throw. Ex: If you start by throwing with 100% effort, get stronger over time, and then decide to sling at your new 80% then you could actually be putting more total effort into the throw. No one said that you'd get weaker by exercising.
English_Marauder wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 1:07pm:
flat-liner: remember consistency is accuracy.
lobber: thats not true because I say it isn't.

You hit the nail on the head here, but the roles are reversed.
English_Marauder wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:33pm:
Please......... this is a weapon....learn to use it as such

We have, we're just trying to get the rest of you to catch up. If you want accuracy at all ranges, all weather, all terrain, and you want it to be instinctive then you'll train for lobbing.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #294 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:45pm
 
I do not understand this quarrel.

Undecided Cry
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #295 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 5:45pm
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:02pm:
Videos have proven that you can sling and that you can hit the target. Nothing else. Same for lobbing.


the videos show that the vast majority of advanced accurate slingers are flat-liners. nothing else
Masiakasaurus wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:02pm:
You want to go for distance, aim higher. Don't throw harder. I am convinced that 90% of the time that Dan is doing what I call lobbing and only does what I call whanging when he's going for huge distances.


I would disagree. Dans trajectory is very flat and his ammo is moving very quick.

Masiakasaurus wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:02pm:
You hit the nail on the head here, but the roles are reversed.


Lobbing is not consistent, the videos of many people show this. for every lobbing video that shows 2 hits I can find a flat-lining one that shows 4(just an example)

Masiakasaurus wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:02pm:
We have, we're just trying to get the rest of you to catch up. If you want accuracy at all ranges, all weather, all terrain, and you want it to be instinctive then you'll train for lobbing.


Lobbing has no significant range. aiming higher only works to a 45 degree angle then you have to put more power behind it.

I have trained in rain, snow, +25 degrees Celsius to -30 degrees Celsius. and I still hold no true value to lobbing.

My kids were watching tv the other night and I overheard this scene....made me laugh Grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3HbErxC-c
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #296 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 6:24pm
 
I can scarcely believe what I'm reading here. Let us, perhaps, recall some facts. I am not writing for Mr Marauder, who is perhaps over excited, but for all. I also should state that I am not a great slinger-- but have been doing it for a long time.

Slinging is very difficult. When most people start, they can barely shoot without cord tangle, or land a shot within a 45 degree quadrant in front of them. Hence beginners' liking for distance shoots.

Slinging accurately is very difficult. The reason is that pouch release is difficult to control, especially when shooting at full power. If the pouch opens very slightly too soon or too late, the shot flies wide. Alina, on this forum, used to shoot for hours on end, month after month, and found accuracy difficult at 40 m. A lot of people have posted to say similar things.

Now Mr Marauder is extremely accurate and strong, and charismatic. His vids show him at work: powerful accurate straight shots. His charisma is such that suddenly, a lot of people come out of the woodwork claiming to whang like that. Forgive me, but I doubt it.

A while ago, a lot of people started posting about lobbing. The point here was to regain the necessary control in order to get release right. Hence slower shots (with heavier ammo). Slower shots meant more drop; hence the need to compensate. That's all lobbing is. A lot of people found that this way of shooting is accurate.

Now when you learn to sling, and aim for accuracy, you can start by whanging, until you master the whang, or slow down, until you master the lob. Then you can dial up the power, or stay there (at 75%) and aim for distances.

That's all there is to it.
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« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2014 at 5:31am by Thearos »  
 
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #297 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:09pm
 
EM, you're not actually refuting my points. You're just saying, "no it's not," "use it like a real weapon," and "I'm not convinced" in different ways. Like I've said before, lobbing can be fast.
Edited:

Maybe the source of confusion is that Jaegoor has two modes, keep the target useable and batter it to hell. Regardless, he uses the same effort at all ranges against the same target. No matter how far away he is, Jaegoor is equally as accurate at the same power level. That fits my criteria for lobbing.
Bill Skinner wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 6:40pm:
EM, Jaegoor throws granite.  He deliberately dials the power back to avoid beating his target and ammo to pieces.  Find his video of him throwing at a melon to get an idea of his full strength throws.


Like I've said before:
Masiakasaurus wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 6:52pm:
You keep trying to make the argument into "gently tossed baseball vs .44 magnum" when it's not. Lobbing is a marginal reduction in effort for a massive increase in controllability. And it is maintaining a consistent level of effort thereafter regardless of the situation.

I think I've been consistent in my stance throughout.
Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 3:23pm:
Dan wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 2:40pm:
Masi's argument does not end the debate, because straight throwers are equally as capable of throwing near comparable weight rocks at a much greater velocity (I even went out in the freezing rain and slung to confirm this before typing this).


Imagine double or triple the distance to your target. How would you change the way you sling so that the stone gets to the same spot on the target? If you didn't use 100% of you strength before and you don't now, but instead aim higher then you do what Thearos and I call lobbing. If you already were using 100% and can only aim higher, if you throw harder at longer distance, or if you use a lighter stone for distance then you don't. You might not realize this because you might be slinging at your point blank range.

Dan wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 2:40pm:
I have lobbed before, I've seen lobbing (posted about it earlier) and the more I do it, the more I'm sure it is not the best way to use a sling.

I imagine that's what a gap shooter thinks when trying to learn instinctive archery and vice versa. It's because you aren't used to the technique, not because lobbing is in any way deficient. In regards to the OP, not using absolutely 100% of your strength increases your potential for accurate slinging and increasing the weight of your stones will yield better terminal ballistics than trying to sling faster.

(^My first response from when we got away from "which weight is better.")

Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 25th, 2013 at 10:37am:
You're thinking of lobbing wrong. Lobbing is aiming high and making the stone drop. If you want to translate it to archery, lobbing is a normal and comfortable shot that's going to arc more with more distance and whanging is overdrawing the bow for distance shots and using Turkish flight arrows.

Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 12:55am:
To continue the archery metaphor, you don't -or shouldn't- use all your strength to pull back the bow. If it takes all you've got to draw your bow to anchor then you're overbowed and it will negatively effect your technique. Nor should you try to get more power with a floating anchor point that changes based on target distance. Same for the difference between lobbing versus whanging in slinging. If you aren't using absolutely everything you've got and you aren't changing the strength with which you sling, you're lobbing. Changing the force with which you sling changes the speed of the sling's rotation and changes release timing. The better way to aim at targets at different distances is to learn to adjust your aim instinctively rather than adjust your power just like instinctive shooting in archery.

(^From when we were still talking about weight. I still emphasized consistency at different ranges.)


What I'm getting out of this is that both you and Dan dial back way too much when you try lobbing and are not actually doing what Thearos and I are telling you to try. It's possible that you both have longer point blank ranges, but it's more probable that you're just defining the cutoff for what is arc to be very high. Dan, I am almost sure, does what I call lobbing when he "flat-lines at distance."
Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 10:59am:
Dan said lobbing was like half drawing and whanging was getting to anchor, I said that lobbing is getting to anchor and whanging is either using Turkish flight arrows (too light to be effective) and/or overdrawing. Because I keep saying that lobbing has already maximized the potential of the weapon. The exception would be at point blank range -however long or short that is- where a lobbed stone would have to fly very high but not very far or it would have to be so underthrown as to barely impact the target.

You do whang, I think. And it seems as if your objection is to lobbing is just that "lobbing is for sissies and I will not look like a sissy."
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #298 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:37pm
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:09pm:
You do whang, I think. And it seems as if your objection is to lobbing is just that "lobbing is for sissies and I will not look like a sissy."


No, you have me all wrong. At the most basic level what I am trying to say is.....there is no benefit of "dialing it back" even if it is marginal......their is no proven benefits in relation to control, power and distance. when you develop as a slinger, it is only reasonable to learn to throw
harder/faster/longer/more accurately.... I believe lobbing is a form of throwing that does not develop the slinger(hand eye coordination, strength...etc) and does not harness the full potential of the weapon. I for the record do not believe anyone to be a "sissy" for lobbing....IMO lobbing is simply not a good representation of how the weapon is supposed to work.

Masi the only reason I have not been refuting in detail is, at this point there is not much I can say that hasn't already been said. I will clearly not convince you or Thearos that flat-lining is a better way to practice. You mentioned earlier in this debate that I would reach a plateau in accuracy flat-lining..... I have not yet...... BUT even if I did right now I would still be far more accurate consistently than any lobber I have seen. I truly believe that lobbers are in a rut and you will have to discover your own way out.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #299 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:47pm
 
And I see all out whanging as continuously moving to a heavier weight (either lifting weights or archery, take your pick) before you're ready. The best technique will never develop if you're overdoing it even if you do see gains.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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