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Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing

Lobbing    
  6 (12.8%)
Throwing (flatlining)    
  21 (44.7%)
Both have their place    
  18 (38.3%)
I like to kick rocks.....    
  2 (4.3%)




Total votes: 47
« Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:20am »

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Lobbing vs. Throwing (Read 45082 times)
Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #270 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 8:26pm
 
Thearos wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 2:12pm:
Good lord, underhand ? Never.

Lobbing is shooting with an awareness of drop.


Right, cause any flat-liner is completely ignorant of the effects of gravity...  Roll Eyes


I've only seen lobbing used with helicopter and Balearic styles. Greek and Fig.8 usually feel better it moderate-light ammunition and underhand puts a top-spin on the ammo so it maintains a (flat) ground-hugging trajectory.

This is what I see as lobbing: Slow rotations, slow release, moderately heavy to unreasonably heavy ammo, high arching parabola, decreased energy in the throw (40-65%), very controlled, used with helicopter and Balearic, capable of accuracy and transferring momentum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJv0LJqd9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJa7FhVjSHI


And these would be flat lining: fast, yet completely controllable, accurate, utilizes full power potential of the sling, used with any weight ammunition, very strong (usually 70-90% for target throwing but this may increase if throwing for distance), used with any style, preferred by most slingers, awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ65qYFKcwQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCM2PKlRcZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwlZJ5IlN68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV3MFmiDVcA
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"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #271 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 5:22am
 
The issues here are partly that no one knows how to measure the power put in the lob (75% of full on whang is what lobbers feel, whangers put it much lower, probably because when they lob, they do it with self-loathing), and one of distances, namely that whangers operate at point blank ranges, shooting straight within their "natural drop" (from shoulder hight shot to shoulder hight arrival point).

For instance, when I warm up and shoot at a cliff face at 10m, of course I whang (to the point that stones bounce back at me)-- there's not enough distance to develop the lob.
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #272 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 5:34am
 
Shorter: the longer the distance, the harder the lob (until we get to universal lob distances, i.e. shooting long).
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #273 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 6:46am
 
Whangers rely on speed to overcome drop-- hence the shooting at point-blank distances. Anything longer, they are, in fact, lobbing at a shallow angle (which obviously increases with distance).
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #274 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 10:29am
 
Sorry, Dan, Jaegoor is not lobbing.  He is not throwing at his full power but the rocks are shattering when they hit his metal center.  Do you spar at full strength every time you practice?  One Baleric guy was sort of lobbing but one was not. 

And your whangers are not throwing at full strength either but they are putting more of their upper body into the movement, which translates into more power.

So, what we have here is basically two different types of throwing, one that uses mostly arm power versus one that uses all the upper body.

Upper body will be more powerful simply because you use more muscles in the throw.  Upper body will be more difficult to learn because it uses more muscles in the throw. 

Notice that you, EM, and your other whangers all are very athletic, at least two of you practice martial arts on a regular basis, And I will guess that all of your whangers probably do also.  And the way you throw is perfect for hitting a Roman in the head and having the glande take it off.

Throwing with just the arm has advantages, too.  First, it's better if you want to try to hunt with the sling, less movement means less chance of spooking game.  As for war, someone with better computer skills needs to look up the videos made by Tint.  His rate of fire was awesome.  He was averaging around 10-12 accurate throws per minute, he sometimes exceeded that.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #275 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 11:27am
 
Bill Skinner wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 10:29am:
Sorry, Dan, Jaegoor is not lobbing.  He is not throwing at his full power but the rocks are shattering when they hit his metal center.


I must disagree. I believe Jaegoor to be lobbing. maybe it is the type of rock that he is using.... that allows it to shatter easy.... sandstone?

I use a lot of granite and it wont break no matter how hard you throw it, or how big the stone is.


Bill Skinner wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 10:29am:
Upper body will be more powerful simply because you use more muscles in the throw.  Upper body will be more difficult to learn because it uses more muscles in the throw. 



This I would agree with.

Bill Skinner wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 10:29am:
Notice that you, EM, and your other whangers all are very athletic, at least two of you practice martial arts on a regular basis, And I will guess that all of your whangers probably do also.


also in agreement. I grew up practicing wrestling, kick boxing, and ju-jitsu extensively.... maybe bill you are on to something? more athletic people are more naturally comfortable using the whole upper body.

I still believe strongly that flat- lining (as a style of throwing) has many more advantages practically, historically, and for target slinging.

If you learn to flat-line well.....(this might take some time for some) the advantages will be noticeable, and profound, and after learning this the odd time a lob would be useful it will be a breeze Wink       
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Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #276 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 11:38am
 
Thearos, every projectile flies with an arc, even a bullet shot at close range has a slight arc to it. Flat-lining at distance can't just be "lobbing with a low arc" because then lobbing at distance would be "flat-lining with a high arc", and the terms would be interchangeable  Huh .

Bill's upper body/arm is much more divisive. If you view the videos in different windows, there is clearly a difference. To truly make distance, some muscle is required, so you must use the flat-lining form. However, gravity also comes into play so you must aim higher which, dare I say it, is an element of lobbing (however you can go back to my previous posts and see that I really think of it more as "whanging on an angle" because of the intent behind the throw). So distance really has to employ elements of both (kind of), however we can argue about which is better sub 50 yards until the cows come home.  Smiley

Bill Skinner, I definitely agree with most of what you said, but I really did think Jaegoor was lobbing there. I think Thearos may have even posted that video earlier as reference to what lobbing is. No, I don't spar full power, and neither do the people I spar, because of the high chances of injury. However, when slinging at a target, the target should be able to take the hits, and it certainly isn't going to hurt you back.

I may have joked around about lobbing being weak, but even an 8oz rock that's hand thrown will have some power behind it, and according to Masi's equation it has even more momentum than flat-lining. However, the breaking of rocks also isn't a good judge of power. I'm sure you and any guy who grew up in the country spent many boyhood hours breaking small rocks against bigger rocks by hand (via hand throwing).   

What do you consider lobbing then?

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"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #277 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 12:04pm
 
I also agree that Jaegoor is lobbing-- and the shattering of the stones indicates the power that goes into the lob.

I personally don't think that lobbing is "arm only". The whole body participates no matter what you do.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #278 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 6:40pm
 
There is some rotation of the upper body at the hips in every type of throw, the whangers look more like a major league baseball pitcher throwing the ball.  The whole upper body finishes leaning into the throw along with a step to help increase the forward movement of the body.

Lobbers tend to stay more erect, they step into the throw and rotate at the hips, so saying arm throwing is not entirely correct.  Look at Dans' slinging video of the Baleric slingers, look at the difference between the guy that throws five times and the younger guy that only throws once.  The second guy is whanging.

EM, Jaegoor throws granite.  He deliberately dials the power back to avoid beating his target and ammo to pieces.  Find his video of him throwing at a melon to get an idea of his full strength throws.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #279 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 7:06pm
 
I guess our granite here in Canada is top quality then..... Roll Eyes

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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #280 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 7:24pm
 
I think Bill's right, wanglers are like baseball pitchers. Lobbers are like throwers of footballs.
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Tomas
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #281 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:58am
 
Check it out
Lower velocity with bigger ammo wins against lighter ammo higher velocity
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_de3HJvO-N8
Now obviously the advantage goes to the ammo.
What the results would be if they both used the same ball. I bet if they did have the same ammo the baseball pitcher would win
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #282 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 9:50am
 
Tomas wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:58am:
Check it out
Lower velocity with bigger ammo wins against lighter ammo higher velocity
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_de3HJvO-N8
Now obviously the advantage goes to the ammo.
What the results would be if they both used the same ball. I bet if they did have the same ammo the baseball pitcher would win

Yep, because momentum. It's the best predictor of the force that an object can exert.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #283 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 10:22am
 
Many of my stones in the video have a weight of 250 g and more. Therefore, one can see them in the film good. I best shoot stones with a weight of from 180 to 200 g. One does not see these stones in a video flying any more.
The power does not come from the arm. She comes from the hip. A hard one hit from the arm is not healthy. Many Balearic Slingers have big problems with the shoulder and the elbow. Their method is not healthy. A Sling never transfers the whole strength. Therefore, it also makes no sense her to give more strength than she can transfer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OZhw-Azydg 240g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7KiQScrJAw 200g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNZ_yuq3rGA 230g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA9qx-jFmFc 200g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHj5NUdw-8I 180 -200g
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Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #284 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 11:12am
 
Tomas wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:58am:
Check it out
Lower velocity with bigger ammo wins against lighter ammo higher velocity
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_de3HJvO-N8
Now obviously the advantage goes to the ammo.
What the results would be if they both used the same ball. I bet if they did have the same ammo the baseball pitcher would win



The issue regarding the power/momentum/ammunition weight has been discussed many times. And that advantage would go to lobbers if flat-liners were incapable of throwing heavy rocks, however that simply isn't true. Flat-lining provides great power with light and heavy ammo, lobbing only provides power with heavy ammo.

I can guarantee that myself, EM, and most flat liners could flat-line any heavy stone that a lobber would normally lob with standard form (non-pirouetting). So a big rock going moderately fast may beat a small rock going really fast, but a big rock going really fast (flat-lined) could beat both. Therefore, flat-lining ("Strong Slinging") wins again. However, lobbing can't be too weak because it uses heavy ammo, there is a guarantee of a transference of momentum via the weight of the stone.

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"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
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