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Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing

Lobbing    
  6 (10.3%)
Throwing (flatlining)    
  23 (39.7%)
Both have their place    
  27 (46.6%)
I like to kick rocks.....    
  2 (3.4%)




Total votes: 58
« Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:20am »

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Lobbing vs. Throwing (Read 79889 times)
timann
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #240 - Dec 31st, 2013 at 4:03am
 
@jlasud, 70 meters was the distance metioned for the bow/sling combo artack.  Lines 100 meters apart, archers and slingers move forward 30 meters and start doing their thing...

(quote)
(I'd say about 70m would be a good distance to do the coordinated tandem trajectory attack,because egg sized stones can be delivered fairly flat with long slings,or arrows,from very powerful bows,at that distance, while fist sized rocks can be lobbed at such distance also.

Also,this distance is still safe from javelineers.)
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #241 - Dec 31st, 2013 at 4:51pm
 
I take the liberty to direct (again) readers to a discussion initiated by erstwhile forum member Alina, in which she argues that much longbow archery did not take place, in battle, at ranges over 100m

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20161
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Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #242 - Dec 31st, 2013 at 5:49pm
 
I would agree that reasonable primitive projectile range is within 150 yards.

This means that one can use large rocks in war slinging without falling short. However it also means being mobile is more important. Flat-lining is plenty for battle, the plethora of small lead glans and reasonably sized (egg size) rocks I evidence that even within lobbing ranges, flat lining was generally preferred.

Regardless, it is unlikely any of us will be in a massive real life ancient style peltist battle. The real debate is what is most pragmatic and powerful for todays slinger. I'm fairly certain we've circled all of those points regarding those several times by now... and we've then concluded that flat-lining is vastly superior for every purpose except lobbing rocks just over a wall or, in modern times, playing egg toss with one's mee-maw or nana in the backyard.  Wink
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #243 - Dec 31st, 2013 at 8:48pm
 
No, we have not. Let me restate the debate.

1. Accuracy.
Working at reasonable ranges for accuracy shooting (say 15-20m), we notice two things.

a. Some people shoot hard and straight and hit the target
b. Some people shoot a bit slower and on an arc and hit the target.

Examples of a: Mr Marauder. Yurek. Rockman.
Examples of b: Jaegoor. Bill Skinner (I think). Masia.

Now the debate is whether a or b is better. The lobbers think that b is better, because it allows more control, and that it is the more mature way of slinging. I tend to think this. The straight-shooters think that a is better, because it puts the shot straight at the target, and therefore that you should work on your skill until you can do that.

But another thought occurred to me-- that perhaps some people have the natural skill to straight-shoot without difficulty, but that many (I suspect) do not have the coordination. I have been slinging for over 30 years now, and must say that if I straight shoot, I consistently pull to the left. If I lob, I can place shots, and lobbing has helped me grow. I still try to concentrate and align and get my straight shots in order.

2. "Power".
Still at the same range (15-20m), I put forward three observations:
a. Straight shooters get their power from speed
b. Lobbers CAN get power from using heavier stones (which in fact are the optimal ammo for lobbing)
c. Heavier ammo retains speed better.

There's been a fair bit of debate here: I've argued that a heavy stone launched with a fair bit of speed does arrive with a pretty considerable terminal KE; Masia. has insisted on momentum as the important factor favouring the heavy stones (and I do not pretend to understand all of his maths); the "whangers' believe that the speed of their projectiles mean the fast stone has a LOT of KE.

3. "True nature of the sling"
This, I fear, is the area of greatest subjectivity and silliness, and I have contributed much to the silliness. But frankly, no one really has much experience in using the sling in war or in riots or in hunting or in herding. I would welcome evidence, from texts, ethnography or films, showing slings in use-- with an eye to this lobbing vs whanging problem.

4. Distance
Now once we get beyond the 30 m range, everyone shoots with an eye on drop. I don't think we have a lot of experience on accuracy shooting at these ranges (40, 50, 80, 100m)-- at that point, everyone just lets rip at different angles ("whanging at an angle"). Except that (Masia writes) we should perhaps be thinking more in terms of scaling our lobbing outwards.
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squirrelslinger
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #244 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:40am
 
if we omit hitting power from this discussion...
flat-lining is still more accurate in theory, because with less travel time, there is less chance for it to go off course due to wind, etc.
although, lobbing may be more accurate in practice due to human error and reaction time.
I side with the whangers(such a better term, it sounds awesome). 
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #245 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 5:39pm
 
In response to Thearos's post above:

1. Your problem with the shot going left should not be the gage of flat-lining as a whole, especially because it is easily fixed (pull your hand back further away from the target or just let go earlier). I respect your years of experience spent slinging, however I have taught a lot of people (around 20, enough to make assumptions) to sling and none have had problems with flat-lining and having it be "out of control" or had problems with it that couldn't be easily fixed with a little coaching.

2. I will make a video this week confirming this (hopefully tomorrow), but as a young athletic male, I can flat-line any stone a lobber would use with normal form (just wrist and a little elbow movement/non-pirouetting and no huge shoulder movements). Flat-lining and lobbing can be done with any weight stone, but lobbing only has power when using unusually heavy stones that could still be flat-lined even harder.

3. Relative. Aussie said the sling is a "Velocity Amplifier" (TSG), in order to utilize the full potential of this velocity amplification, one should be using dense egg sized rocks and slinging at 85% - 90% power in order to maintain as much control as is necessary and project significant velocity  (See Bow and Arrow analogy earlier in the debate). Is lobbing with a sling still slinging? Absolutely! Is it superior to flat-lining? As far as I have seen and learned from this discussion, No.

4. Shallower arcs make distance shooting more consistent. That's one of the reasons distance estimation is so important at long ranges. Because if your mental subconscious estimate is even a few yards shot, your shot will go very short. If lobbing still remains lobbing and you just keep increasing your throwing angle (up to 45 degrees), you are trying to drop the rock on top of the target as opposed to throwing it straight in. Try throwing a football (overhand) into a vertical trashcan, then try a horizontal (slightly angled upwards) and you can see why the direct horizontal throw is so much easier and more practical for slinging.

5. (Bonus!) One factor we haven't considered is the bounce-hit. Flat-lining will almost always produce a ricochet of the ground if your shot falls short. This is substantially less likely to happen with true lobbing.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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timpa
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #246 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:00pm
 
If the shooters and lobbyists fighting with each other, which ones will win?
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #247 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:04pm
 
The lobbers, of course. Wink
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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squirrelslinger
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #248 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:08pm
 
the flat liners.
Lets get together and test this with tennis balls, shall we?
No water filled balls. It cancels the purpose of the test.
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
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timpa
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #249 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:18pm
 
I can be a referee. Cheesy
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #250 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 8:46pm
 
squirrelslinger wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:08pm:
the flat liners.
Lets get together and test this with tennis balls, shall we?
No water filled balls. It cancels the purpose of the test.

Tennis balls make everyone lobbers! Cheesy
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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squirrelslinger
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #251 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:35pm
 
LOL.... nope
they don't.
Tennis balls make everyone flat-liners, because they fly 1 inch with a lob.
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
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Dan
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #252 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 11:42am
 
I've lobbed and flat-lined tennis balls before. However, because tennis balls are so light, they harness preponderance of their power from velocity. Which, as everyone can agree, is in favor of flat-lining.

Masi's point is that tennis balls maintain a short arcing trajectory because of their air resistance. However, at the point when you have to worry about tennis ball drop (around 30 yards), they have lost the bulk of their kinetic energy and are no longer a "danger" in "battle". So accurate flat-liners sub 30 yards would most likely crush the opposition, because light ammunition cancels out any benefit of lobbing except for "control", which only applies if one is significantly less accurate with flat-lining. However, with some practice, flat-lining is just as accurate if not more accurate than lobbing so even "control" is moot.
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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jlasud
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #253 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 9:33am
 
Dan said it.
Only pros for lobbing IMO is BIG stones,herding sheep,playing snowball ,scaring animals away.

Most accurate shooting we do,is the one we do at our usual speed,usual sling, and ammo.
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #254 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 2:08pm
 
To restate things,

1. at 30 m, you can whang a 100g stone
2. at 30 m, you can lob a 200g stone.

1 over-stresses the shot, 2. delivers a lot of punch and is easier to control, and hence to obtain accuracy. Mr Marauder's trick is that he's strong enough to whang 170+g stones, and skillful enough to keep them on target. Most people evolve towards 2.

If you want to fantasize what it would be like to fight with a sling at 30-40m, go ahead; it's not clear that it would be easier to dodge a 200g arcing shot, any easier than to dodge a javelin. Experience in reenacting, or shooting at targets

At longer distances, everyone lobs.
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