Slinging.org Forum - Lobbing vs. Throwing

Masiakasaurus

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #105 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:20pm

I'm not saying that all your shots will go rediculously wild, I'm saying your accuracy will plateau earlier if you have to force your throws to try for a flatter flight and that accuracy will depend much more heavily on the target being the proper distance away from you.

"Flight arrows" is a valid analogy even though you're throwing stones heavier than a pebble because we're comparing a mass that has more favorable terminal ballistics to one that has less favorable terminal ballistics. It's necking down a cartridge to lessen the bullet drop. The new caliber will probably be effective against some targets, but it's going to have less stopping power than its parent cartridge. If you want the most damaging effect on target you should learn to instinctively compensate for drop rather than reduce the bullet's mass like E_M said he does.

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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all.
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #106 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:46pm If you need an analogy of sufficient manliness, just imagine, as you lob, that you're throwing an American football http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDNgeZ_D1rQ
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English_Marauder Descens Offline Balearic Slinger Posts: 229 Canada Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #107 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:47pm with the variation in weight of the stones I use.(simply beach stones) I compensate by putting more power into a slightly heavier stone.(to maintain a flat trajectory) when I mentioned changing stone weight or sling length that would be with something heavier than I could physically handle(a rock I could not flat line).
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English_Marauder Descens Offline Balearic Slinger Posts: 229 Canada Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #108 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:50pm I Picture throwing through the target, destroying it. I do NOT picture someone catching it on the other end.(football)
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Thearos

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #109 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:53pm

Masia.:

"The lobbing side keeps saying that you maximize the potential of the sling by lobbing and that whanging is either throwing too hard and sacrificing technique or throwing a stone lighter than necessary and sacrificing terminal ballistics. "Flight arrows" is a valid analogy even though you're throwing stones heavier than a pebble because we're comparing a mass that has more favorable terminal ballistics to one that has less favorable terminal ballistics. It's necking down a cartridge to lessen the bullet drop. The new caliber will probably be effective against some targets, but it's going to have less stopping power than its parent cartridge. If you want the most damaging effect on target you should learn to instinctively compensate for drop rather than reduce the bullet's mass like E_M said he does"

That's an excellent piece of writing and arguing.

Anyway: repeat to yourself "I sling like a quarterback", if you need to feel manly. And don't catch fist-sized stones if lobbed at you.

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English_Marauder Descens Offline Balearic Slinger Posts: 229 Canada Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #110 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:08pm Thearos, with respect, with the amount you talk about people relating hard throws to manliness, my guess is your not feeling very manly yourself. Just remember only you have made reference between throwing style and Manliness.
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Thearos

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #111 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:13pm

For me, Masia.'s arguments on terminal ballistics (heavy stone hits hard, choice of lighter stone for flat traj. sacrifices on that front) have actually worked the debate out to its conclusion. Lobbers win. Whangers listen.

My contribution is to add the consolatory mantra or images for those who feel uncomfortable lobbing (beyond point-blank range, remember), as somehow "untrue to the real nature of the sling" or "not powerful enough". These images will worm into the whangers' brain-- they will try not to think about it-- and one day, they will realize-- hey, at the right distance, my hand reaches for the heavy stone, and my arm, it lobbeth ! Why did I fight it !

We will all laugh about this in some years time, as everyone lobs, happily fulfilling the potential of the sling, at the right distances.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #112 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:18pm To put what Masia. said slightly differently and insist on one of his most striking points: using lighter ammo to achieve flat traj. sacrifices terminal ballistics, and hence does not fulfil the full potential of the sling as weapon.
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English_Marauder Descens Offline Balearic Slinger Posts: 229 Canada Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #113 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:26pm you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Its okay maybe one day you will grasp the fundamentals. If you keep practicing your form and building your strength maybe some day, you to can enjoy the full power available from this amazing weapon.
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #114 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:28pm Point-blank might be a distance window-- for me, say 10-20m; at the further end of that window, it is already intersecting with the beginning of the "lobbing" window.
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #115 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:56pm Some old links: Jaegoor's "Technik" http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1285662189/9 Jaegoor hunting with his technique (and shooting a roe deer): http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1277358869/4
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Dan

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #116 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:40pm

Just for the record I don't think I ever said lobbing was "weak" per se just less powerful than straight throwing, and that it also doesn't completely utilize the sling's energy potential.

Thearos wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

For me, Masia.'s arguments on terminal ballistics (heavy stone hits hard, choice of lighter stone for flat traj. sacrifices on that front) have actually worked the debate out to its conclusion. Lobbers win. Whangers listen.

Masi's argument does not end the debate, because straight throwers are equally as capable of throwing near comparable weight rocks at a much greater velocity (I even went out in the freezing rain and slung to confirm this before typing this). I said that earlier. Straight throwing doesn't require uber-light rocks; golf ball, chicken egg, and even tennis ball sized rocks can all be straight thrown comfortably.

The sling has been around for thousands of years and many of the world's best slingers (Luis Pons Livermore, World Champion Slinger straight throws, so I get a feeling it can't be as bad as you make it sound) still straight throw.

Thearos wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

My contribution is to add the consolatory mantra or images for those who feel uncomfortable lobbing (beyond point-blank range, remember), as somehow "untrue to the real nature of the sling" or "not powerful enough". These images will worm into the whangers' brain-- they will try not to think about it-- and one day, they will realize-- hey, at the right distance, my hand reaches for the heavy stone, and my arm, it lobbeth ! Why did I fight it !

I have lobbed before, I've seen lobbing (posted about it earlier) and the more I do it, the more I'm sure it is not the best way to use a sling.

Thearos wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

We will all laugh about this in some years time, as everyone lobs, happily fulfilling the potential of the sling, at the right distances.

Its been a few thousand years, people will still be straight throwing well into the future (because its the best Wink

)

Jaegoor also thinks apache and figure 8 are improper ways to sling, just because he killed a small deer 20 years ago, it doesn't make him a slinging god. If you want to use the ad hominem there's plenty of straight throwers out there who can attest to its success as well(Paleoarts straight throws and killed a turkey and many other game).

I'd prefer that people lob than not sling at all, but I am really sure lobbing is not 'the peak of sling technique'.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

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Dan

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #117 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 3:19pm

Throwing a football like that is arcing, not lobbing. He isn't intentionally throwing it less hard to achieve more arc, that's just what is necessary to get the ball from point A t point B. Similar to distance throwing.

Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:20pm:

I'm not saying that all your shots will go rediculously wild, I'm saying your accuracy will plateau earlier if you have to force your throws to try for a flatter flight and that accuracy will depend much more heavily on the target being the proper distance away from you.

"Flight arrows" is a valid analogy even though you're throwing stones heavier than a pebble because we're comparing a mass that has more favorable terminal ballistics to one that has less favorable terminal ballistics. It's necking down a cartridge to lessen the bullet drop. The new caliber will probably be effective against some targets, but it's going to have less stopping power than its parent cartridge. If you want the most damaging effect on target you should learn to instinctively compensate for drop rather than reduce the bullet's mass like E_M said he does.

Straight throwers don't have to force a throw for a flat trajectory. I just throw normally and the rock (usually around 3-5oz) flies forward in a straight trajectory. Over distance, there might be a little more arcing but I'd never sling less powerfully just to achieve more of an arc.

It's a barely necked down cartridge, it at all, with more than sufficient weight to take care of business. If I was slinging one ounce stones, you'd be right on, but I don't. No straight thrower has to.

If you watch EM's videos, you'll see his ammunition is still egg sized rocks, just like most slinging cultures throughout the world have been using for thousands of years.

I know you could totally own me in science type things, but using realy simple science, KE is still velocity biased (Obviously you already know this but for others, KE = 1/2mv^2, where m is mass in kg and v is velocity in meters per second), and you are only taking down the weight by a couple ounces, so the power should definitely be in straight throwing's favor.

Again, no hard feelings against lobbers, I just want to make sure straight throwing is being fairly represented.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

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Thearos

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #118 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 3:23pm

Oh sure, if you like target plinking at point-blank range, go ahead and short-change the sling with your zippy straight shots with sub-optimal ammo. It's not because it looks chunky that it's heavy *for your sling*.

But if you want to fulfil the potential of this age-old weapon, choose a big fist sized stone, and lob it well, send it crashing into the target.

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Masiakasaurus

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #119 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 3:23pm

Dan wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Masi's argument does not end the debate, because straight throwers are equally as capable of throwing near comparable weight rocks at a much greater velocity (I even went out in the freezing rain and slung to confirm this before typing this).

Imagine double or triple the distance to your target. How would you change the way you sling so that the stone gets to the same spot on the target? If you didn't use 100% of you strength before and you don't now, but instead aim higher then you do what Thearos and I call lobbing. If you already were using 100% and can only aim higher, if you throw harder at longer distance, or if you use a lighter stone for distance then you don't. You might not realize this because you might be slinging at your point blank range.

Dan wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

I have lobbed before, I've seen lobbing (posted about it earlier) and the more I do it, the more I'm sure it is not the best way to use a sling.

I imagine that's what a gap shooter thinks when trying to learn instinctive archery and vice versa. It's because you aren't used to the technique, not because lobbing is in any way deficient. In regards to the OP, not using absolutely 100% of your strength increases your potential for accurate slinging and increasing the weight of your stones will yield better terminal ballistics than trying to sling faster.

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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all.
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~

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Poll
Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Lobbing 6 (10.3%) Throwing (flatlining) 23 (39.7%) Both have their place 27 (46.6%) I like to kick rocks..... 2 (3.4%) Total votes: 58 « Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18^th, 2013 at 9:20am »