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new video of balearic chapionship in menorca (Read 15992 times)
Thearos
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #15 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 10:51am
 
Reminder: how to lob.

Shoot at a manageable, sustainable level of power. The shot will DROP fast. Therefore, aim a bit higher, computing the drop, and land the shot-- often a heavy smasher of a stone-- on your target. This at ranges up to 40m. I.e. exactly the same distance you could manage with full power whanging shots.

The skill also comes in useful for long distance shooting. On the long shoot, full power, you do not go for a flat traj. because the shot DROPS. Therefore, you aim at 45 degrees-- and hence, you're lobbing, just at long distance: you might as well already be in the frame of mind and experience.
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« Last Edit: Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:01pm by Thearos »  
 
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #16 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 3:33pm
 
Thearos wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 7:13am:
I don't agree with that. I think it's a fallacy, "slinging = 110% power whanging".

With a sling, you can lob further than with the hand, heavier stones, with less strain on your body than by throwing by hand, and with greater control.

Mr Jaegoor he doth lob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJv0LJqd9Y

and he knows what he's doing.

Lob, brothers, lob !


I believe sir that you are ignoring the fact that a sling is a weapon first and foremost.

another point that I would like to make is that within 30 yards. I could throw a rock "by hand" of equal size on a "lob" arching trajectory and be accurate.

I will repeat. A sling is a weapon. the physics do not lie.

more power generated = more velocity= flatter trajectory= better accuracy/ more predictable flight of the rock/ less variables.

I respect every ones own slinging style and Bill Skinner is right in saying,""Am I enjoying myself?"  If you are, then it doesn't matter what someone else's reason for slinging is, we are all individuals and we all have different reasons for slinging."

I do however believe that it is important to preserve the fundamental principals surrounding this weapon.  Smiley

I just don't want to see slinging as a sport turning into a game of basketball.
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Thearos
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #17 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 3:59pm
 
I am not a strong thrower, and think I could lob strongly and accurately to about 15 m. With a sling, I can lob strongly and accurately to double that, 30m or so. I can also shoot straight and strong on a flat trajectory, but the lobbing allows me to land heavy "smashers" on target with less effort and better control. If you want to remember the nature of the sling as a weapon, the crushing power of the "hand-filling" stone, lobbed calmly, arcing down, dropping hard and shattering on the target will act as the reminder. It's as effortless and as exhilarating, using the power of the sling (and not powering it 110%, whanging the shot) as if a giant were standing next to you, tossing the stone with huge power.

Lob, brothers, lob !
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Thearos
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #18 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:09pm
 
You know you want to.

Forget the macho whanging the shot, "It's a weapon so I must put my full power into it" fantasies. Start on your own, far from prying eyes and YT-ready cameras--and lob at your target. What you dial down in power, you gain by adjusting elevation, coordinating with elegance, and the smashing force will come from the drop.

Lob, brothers, lob !
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #19 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:32pm
 
Thearos wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:09pm:
You know you want to.

Forget the macho whanging the shot, "It's a weapon so I must put my full power into it" fantasies. Start on your own, far from prying eyes and YT-ready cameras--and lob at your target. What you dial down in power, you gain by adjusting elevation, coordinating with elegance, and the smashing force will come from the drop.

Lob, brothers, lob !


Short of comparing unit size this has been a good debate.  Wink

Good luck in your slinging.

I would love to see some of those 30 yard shots on camera.
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #20 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 5:59pm
 
For me slinging is not about power, it is not about accuracy or anything else. It's about fun, as Bill Skinner said. Further a sling is a sling. What you use it for is a different question. Some perceive it as a weapon, some as a tool or a fascination, and others as a method to show off and get attention.

For me slinging is mediation, training in coordination and concentration, self control, unwinding after a long day, relaxing, enjoying the things you made with your own hands, and constantly learning and satisfying your curiosity, shall it be by own experience or by discussions with others.

If your aim should be to learn how to hit a target with force you have to start somewhere. I  recommend to start with learning the movement in a controlled way. Start slowly and easy and somewhen you will find your way to "the top". And "the top" can have many faces. No need to rush yourself Wink. I don't regard slinging as a pre-set and pre-defined thing. You may have your idea or vision of it. I also do. But more important to me than reaching this vision is, is the question: What can slinging give to me?

A stone will always drop, no matter the distance. The arc and the energy of the shot is also a matter of the weight of the stone. So if you want to compare "lobbing" with "shooting straight" (I hate to use this two terms) don't forget to include all variables. It's in my eyes both times the same motion. Think grey, not black and white.

One last point: A sport is an activity to reach a certain target within certain rules and regulations. The way, within the regulations, you can choose freely. There are many ways to achieve the target. Some are more efficient some are less. That's the only difference I see.

(Where is the road? I haven't been so much Off-Topic for a very long time  Wink )
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Thearos
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #21 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 6:29pm
 
Earlier discussion which leads to the Discovery of the Lob

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1377349929

You can there see that I shoot at distances of 22-25m usually, rather than the 30m I earlier claimed. At that distance, I would find it difficult to hit my (already very large) target with a hand-thrown, without great effort. You can also see that my accuracy is not very great, but worse with straight shots than with controlled lobs.

There are distances where one must shoot straight. There are distances where one is lobbing no matter what. When warming up, I shoot at perhaps 9-10 m, and lobbing would not make sense (distance A). At 25 m, lobbing or shooting straight are both options, but I'm starting to think that lobbing is a very good one (distance B). At 40m, even a full power shot is dropping by such an amount as to make straight shooting impossible, so every shot will be a lob, albeit a strong one (distance C).   



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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #22 - Nov 14th, 2013 at 6:27am
 
What do they use for projectiles? I would assume that being a competition, they would want to have them all be a consistent size and weight.
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The greatest of all the accomplishments of 20th cent. science has been the discovery of human ignorance  The main difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits.-Einstein   I'm getting psychic as I get older. Or is that psychotic?
 
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #23 - Nov 14th, 2013 at 11:27am
 
They use fist sized rocks in competition.

I wouldn't classify Jaegoor as lobbing, his rocks shatter when they hit the target.  Concrete didn't last as long as the rocks.  And when he hit a swinging mellon at around 25 meters, it splashed.  Jaegoor is a martial artist, think of the guys instructing karate or fencing, they don't look like they are moving fast, either.  What you are seeing is a total lack of wasted movement.

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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #24 - Nov 14th, 2013 at 2:00pm
 
I would rather say that Jaegoor's slinging proves that lobbing is very powerful.

A swinging melon ??
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #25 - Nov 14th, 2013 at 2:57pm
 
Melon smashing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA9qx-jFmFc
(Which between you and me looks significantly less than 25m maybe 15m tops, perhaps there's something lost in translation)

Just super simple physics, Force = M x A, lobbing is going to lack that acceleration. I'm pretty sure I could hand throw a comparable size rock along the same trajectory that some slingers lob.

Wasted motion is ideal, however no matter how perfect it is, there isn't going to be the energy behind the shot without the velocity generated on the power stroke. I think those shots look slower cause they are. Usually those slingers are highly focused on accuracy and they can get pretty good too.

I'm still not super 'lob or 'no lob', but I definitely wouldn't say lobbing is the absolute peak of slinging ballistics. I'm not trying to kick a hornets nest here, I just want both sides of the discussion to be well represented.
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #26 - Nov 14th, 2013 at 3:39pm
 
Dan wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 2:57pm:
Melon smashing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA9qx-jFmFc
(Which between you and me looks significantly less than 25m maybe 15m tops, perhaps there's something lost in translation)

Just super simple physics, Force = M x A, lobbing is going to lack that acceleration. I'm pretty sure I could hand throw a comparable size rock along the same trajectory that some slingers lob.

Wasted motion is ideal, however no matter how perfect it is, there isn't going to be the energy behind the shot without the velocity generated on the power stroke. I think those shots look slower cause they are. Usually those slingers are highly focused on accuracy and they can get pretty good too.

I'm still not super 'lob or 'no lob', but I definitely wouldn't say lobbing is the absolute peak of slinging ballistics. I'm not trying to kick a hornets nest here, I just want both sides of the discussion to be well represented.


I would have to agree, that it is very easy to see that this is not 25 meters. Forward momentum increases joules of energy exponentially faster than an increase in mass. K=1/2 M x v squared(kinetic energy equation). if you are lobbing a large rock(less forward momentum) you will be creating far less impact energy, than using a rock half the weight flying on a flatter trajectory.

Everything from a rock to a bullet is losing energy during flight. the point is to increase the initial speed of the projectile, so that by the time it reaches the target is has maintained a higher level of energy.

I have watched quite a few of these "LOB" videos, and all that I can think of is the fact that I could catch the rock with my hand.

I personally believe that endorsing this "lobbing" type of shooting could confuse a lot of new slingers as to the true nature of the weapon.         
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Thearos
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #27 - Nov 14th, 2013 at 6:54pm
 
Dan writes "I'm pretty sure I could hand throw a comparable size rock along the same trajectory that some slingers lob."

-- yes, but that is not the point. The point is: can you lob a stone further with a sling than you can lob it with the hand ? Can THEY lob further with the sling than they can lob with THEIR hand ? The answer is yes, and yes.

Let us recall, here, the general tenor of slinging as seen on this forum over the years. Much energy was put into vanquishing distance, and astonishing feats were claimed, and perhaps even performed. Lately, it dawned on many that they might be shooting a golf ball 200m, but they couldn't hit a bush at 30m-- hence the emphasis on accuracy which everyone seems to be talking about. Much whanging has ensued. Of late, I have started to think that controlled lobbing is at least as good as the straight shot, at least at certain distances.

When Mr Marauder writes "I personally believe that endorsing this "lobbing" type of shooting could confuse a lot of new slingers as to the true nature of the weapon", I wonder what this one true nature is; I remember reading and seeing videos about shepherds using the sling to toss stones, with accuracy, to tell sheep where not to go.

But of course, the best shots I've ever seen are Yurek's, and Yurek he lobeth not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCyeQ14N5hs

And many similar vids.

All the same, do not try to catch 150-200 g stones lobbed at you.
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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #28 - Nov 15th, 2013 at 2:11am
 
Excellent discourse on the nuances of slinging, thanks guys.

Pinpoint medium range lob technique is indispensable, even if you approach the sling as merely a weapon, what about slinging fragile, or explosive ammunition through small openings, or slinging from a kneeling position behind cover, where silence and accuracy are more important than power?

For me the sling is a self development tool far more than a weapon, and that needs both lobbing and whanging Smiley

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Re: new video of balearic chapionship in menorca
Reply #29 - Nov 15th, 2013 at 4:37am
 
The Peruvian slinger, he lobbeth not, he whangeth well, but his shot falleth short

http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=26&m5returnid=53...

I noted that lobbing improved my hand-thrown accuracy (to be tested with snowballs this winter), and also had beneficial effects on shooting further than the straight-shot range (for me, maybe 25-30m). The point is that you're lobbing at e.g. 20 m, then 30, then 40 m--each time dialing up the power, to achieve a similar parabolic traj, only reaching out further and further. Whereas when I shoot straight, once drop becomes a significant factor, I have difficult adjusting.
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