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looking good! one last thing to decide. (Read 5338 times)
CodeMaker
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looking good! one last thing to decide.
May 22nd, 2013 at 5:51pm
 
what i'm looking for is a way to hold competitions with friends and be able to say scores that will (eventually) make sense to anyone who hears them. like archery or shooting. from what I've been reading, it looks like most slingers share this vision with me. ammo is a mute point (if you have lead, use it. if you don't, find a rock. they are almost as good.). sling type is common sense: if it is a pouch, a retention cord, and a release cord, it's a sling. a sling is a sling. style is up to preference; if you can hit the target with a pirouette style, do it. for a target we can just go for the one that is already most common: the Balearic target. one point for square, two for circle. nice and simple. you get 20 throws before it's the next guys turn.

all that's left is distance. it will be measured in meters of course, because that's what most of us use. but we need multiple distances. there are two ways that i can think of to do this:

1: calculate the relationship between distance and difficulty, and multiply you're points by the appropriate number for the distance you throw at. for instance: if throwing at 20 meters is twice as hard as 10 meters, multiply your points by 2 when throwing at 20 meters. when throwing at 10 meters, leave the points alone. i can just whip up a graph of points vs. distance and than bingo, we can weight points according to distance. this is the most versatile and free-spirited method i can think of. you can throw at any distance, and weight the points accordingly. 

2: have multiple classes for competition based on distance and level up to the next distance similar to how a gymnast levels up as he gets better. level one is 10 meters, 2 is 20 meters, 3 is 30, etc. this would be much harder to regulate and not as versatile, but would not require a calculator  Roll Eyes

which method do you guys like better?

PS: i know there are people who won't agree with everything, but this is what you get when all the opinions are averaged out. and standardization is all about majority. this is just a simple way to decide who's more accurate, so those of us who like to brag (like myself) can do it with fancy numbers Tongue
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"Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" - Judges, 20:16&&&&for all you right handed suckers out there Tongue
 
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #1 - May 23rd, 2013 at 6:42am
 
points multiplied by a distance factor is good Thumbs Up

But 20 metres isn't twice as hard as 10. Maybe 1.5 if that.
Although it does depend a lot of ammo. If your ammo flies straight at 20 metres then you should be score almost as well as at 10.

As I've just done a lot of target shooting at different distances I can work out my own accuracy versus distance ratios. And we could start from there.
Although that does rather suppose that everyone else can throw in a more or less flat trajectory at 50 metres.
But it's somewhere to start anyway Smiley

If we throw in davids figures and a couple of the other guys - we'd probably come up with something a lot more universally applicable.

But yep - in principle - good idea Smiley

You did forget about standardising the target though. It makes no sense if we're all slinging at different target sizes at different distances - although i suppose you could add target size into the equation and make a simple  algorithm.

so target size adjustment ratio x distance adjustment ratio = P
total score = P x hit-score
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #2 - May 23rd, 2013 at 9:14am
 
@c_a   wouldn't inverse square law for distance apply ... double distance equals 1/4 area to throw at
for same size target ... 4X difficulty for 1/2 of original  minute of angle (MOA) to be thrown to/at.
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #3 - May 23rd, 2013 at 11:26am
 
I thought the Balearic target was already standardized. 1.2m square, 50cm circle, 1.6m from center to ground. and I agree that some people will score higher at a certain distance than others, but that's the point. you can pic the distance that's best for you.

Steven, we also need to remember that you need to throw harder as you get farther away, and that decreases accuracy.

so it looks like we're going with multiplying the score by a distance factor. C_A, would you like to do the honors of gathering info and putting together an accuracy vs distance graph? you could just put up a post on in the "general" section asking people for their scores on a Balearic target in a single session at 10, 20, and 30 meters. 20 shots for each distance. I think people will get more excited if someone with more experience than myself makes the request.
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"Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" - Judges, 20:16&&&&for all you right handed suckers out there Tongue
 
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2013 at 1:47pm
 
I really don't see the point of attempting to compensate for different distances to fold them all into one score.

Keep to a set of standard targets and standard distances and record the results. If someone wants to compete at one distance rather than another then that's fine.

If you want to mung them all together into some quality measure, that's something for later.

Whatever mathematical model anyone comes up with will not be universal, it will favor some and disadvantage others. It seems like you are looking for something like the heptathlon/decathlon scoring system, but those are based on very large amounts of evidence.

I suppose I'm in favor of your second choice. Smiley
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2013 at 3:26pm
 
the point of being able to use any distance like this is that it doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage. if one guy is does well at 20 meters getting lots of hits and another guy does better at 30 meters getting a few hits, that's fine. everyone can throw at the distance he does best at without needing to be in a different class. it keeps competition open to a larger number of people, which is important because of how few slingers there are. i don't quite understand your argument, but you seem to know what you're talking about so i guess that's one vote for option #2  Smiley do you have any suggestions for what distances to use if we decide on having set distances? would we just do every 10 meters, or something else?

for now i'd like to keep gathering accuracy vs distance info since it looks like it's the more popular choice so far. if more people decide they like the second choice though we'll probably need to start a poll to decide which method to use.
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"Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" - Judges, 20:16&&&&for all you right handed suckers out there Tongue
 
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #6 - May 23rd, 2013 at 6:42pm
 
I am gonna try this... but due to my wierdo slinging style(large heavy rocks probably decrease accuracy) it won't be great. do bounces count?
BTW I usually sling at a car-size lump of 3/4 plywood.
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #7 - May 23rd, 2013 at 6:50pm
 
I like the idea of set distances. If you hit a target from further away it should be worth more points. Example: Strike at 10 meters is worth 1 point, at 30 meters 3 points, at 50 meters 6 points etc....
Also if we all sling from set distances it would give us a "ladder" to climb. Also having a specific target would add to the arena effect. What I mean is that in a real competition everybody would be slinging at the same target from the same spot. I digress...
So ya I go for the second option:)
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #8 - May 27th, 2013 at 1:01am
 
I've been readin this quickly,so might missed it,but WHAT IF:
square=1
circle=2  regardless of distance. So if you get 25 points, good,also mentioning that 25 points at 30m for ex.
I think the balearic folk do the same.

I like it how it turned out. Cheesy
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #9 - May 28th, 2013 at 4:24pm
 
so if we do set distances, it'll look like this (distances used are just an example):

Slinging competition on 7th of july, gettysburg. throwing ranges are 15, 20, and 25 meters.

Scores at 15:
    *list scores of each person who threw at this distance*

scores at 20:
    *list scores of each person who threw at this distance*

Scores at 25:
    *list scores of each person who threw at this distance*

(this does seem more organised, and would make more sense to non-slingers, but keep in mind that everyone who's not used to throwing at these distances is now at a disadvantage). this is close to how they do it in the Balearic islands. keep in mind that it is rare and difficult to get more than 5 slingers together at one time anywhere other than the Balearic islands, so if people are competing at different distances, we can't really tell who's the "better slinger."

alternatively, if we value hits based on distance, it'd look like this:

Slinging competition on 7th of july, gettysburg. open to all slingers.

Scores:
    *list all scores from highest to lowest, after being adjusted for the distance*

this method would make less sense to people who don't know how the point multiplier works, but would allow all slingers to compete with each other, and would be better suited for the small groups of slingers than set distances. it also provides a clear pathway to perfection for new slingers: once you can get 40 points at 10 meters, go to 15 meters so you can get more than 40 points.


i believe we are going to need a poll to sort out which one to use. am i missing a major scoring method that should be included in the poll? it seems to me like these methods are the big two.


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« Last Edit: May 28th, 2013 at 6:59pm by CodeMaker »  

"Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" - Judges, 20:16&&&&for all you right handed suckers out there Tongue
 
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #10 - May 28th, 2013 at 5:16pm
 
how bout (if the max distance is 50) putting the person's score over 50 minus the distance? that way it adjusts for the diffuculty increase with distance. Or some other mathmatical formula.
Or multiplying score by distance. I like that one.
Just some ideas.
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #11 - May 28th, 2013 at 5:26pm
 
you've got the right idea squirrelslinger. in order to properly adjust for distance though, we will need to have a few people actually sling at a few different distances and than one of us will put the results on a graph and fit the appropriate curve to it. that graph (and/or the equation for the graph) can then be posted so that anyone can access it. it'll be more simple than it sounds, i promise  Wink
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"Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" - Judges, 20:16&&&&for all you right handed suckers out there Tongue
 
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #12 - May 28th, 2013 at 5:28pm
 
CodeMaker wrote on May 28th, 2013 at 5:26pm:
you've got the right idea squirrelslinger. in order to properly adjust for distance though, we will need to have a few people actually sling at a few different distances and than one of us will put the results on a graph and fit the appropriate curve to it. that graph (and/or the equation for the graph) can then be posted so that anyone can access it. it'll be more simple than it sounds, i promise  Wink

Working on that, but at a target the size of a car.
(its plywood Tongue)
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #13 - May 28th, 2013 at 5:50pm
 
Then draw some square and circle on your plywood, else it won't be usable for Code to do the maths
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Re: looking good! one last thing to decide.
Reply #14 - May 28th, 2013 at 5:59pm
 
yeah, the easiest way to throw together the graph would be if all the data was recorded in points scored on a Balearic target, and meters as the distance measure. so just draw a 1.2 meter square with a 50cm circle on the plywood and you'll have a proper target Smiley i don't really mind if your plywood isn't the correct height above the ground though, that won't affect the data.
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"Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" - Judges, 20:16&&&&for all you right handed suckers out there Tongue
 
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