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Moog, Traumatologie (Read 4198 times)
Thearos
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Moog, Traumatologie
Mar 17th, 2013 at 10:12am
 
Often referred to, a German article on the "traumatology" of sling-inflicted wounds. I've never read it. Here's the abstract, in English and in German.

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Bill Skinner
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #1 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 11:20am
 
Vetran troops aren't intimidated by something that won't hurt them.
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Fundibularius
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #2 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 1:58pm
 
I agree.

It would be interesting to know what kind of human remains from which battlefield were examined, and how representative they are.

I'll try to get the whole article, but it may take a while.
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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
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do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #3 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:32pm
 
they've also not referenced the roman surgeons tool for removing sling bullets.

If it's got to be removed by a pointy metal tool - it's definitely not harmless Smiley
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Thearos
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:54pm
 
Let us, once and for all, put to rest the idea that there were special tools for the removal of sling bullets. As Moog writes, there are a very few references to the removal of sling bullets-- using normal surgical tools.
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #5 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 3:15pm
 
If they were not "very dangerous projectiles", they wouldn't have lasted for 7000+ years  Wink
At least one of us forumers was hit by a stone slung by a friend of him, recently. We may ask him further info.
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #6 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 7:10pm
 
Topic added to the PG's Index.
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #7 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 8:20pm
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 3:15pm:
At least one of us forumers was hit by a stone slung by a friend of him, recently. We may ask him further info.


Is this the guy who's article is on the homepage or is there someone else?
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #8 - Mar 18th, 2013 at 7:33pm
 
I have been hit but not badly(broken bones) hurt by friends slinging when their stones slip out.
Now owwwwww would probably not be what I say if i get hit on purpose with full power.
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #9 - Mar 19th, 2013 at 5:47am
 
Now if a sling produces even half the power of a slingshot/shanghai, I can say without a doubt that a rock would be near fatal, if not fatal. I was almost put down by a grape (the fruit) fired from 15-20 metres that struck me in the ear. I have no doubt that if it was lead shot or a small rock, I would be dribbling my soup down my shirt front at the very least right now. All things being in proportion a sling can lob a much heftier projectile for a greater distance, even if it doesn't reach the same velocity as something fired by the aid of surgical rubber tubing.


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Thearos
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #10 - Mar 19th, 2013 at 8:20am
 
From Moog, we can take away one point: there are very few, perhaps none, examples of skeletons from the Classical world that seem to bear traces of sling-related trauma. However, to conclude, as he does, that sling proj's were mostly for intimidation is probably too much. After all, there are very few skeletons which bear traces of battefield or simply violent trauma at all...

I suppose it might be better to bear in mind the following:

1. Not every sling bullet or stone slung in anger hit someone-- more likely than not, most got lost among the thousands that rained down.

2. Defensive equipment and personal armour will do a lot to reduce the lethality of slingstones, etc. Generally, in ancient texts, people are often spoken of as wounded. I think the consul Paullus was hit, but not killed, by a Balearic slingstone at Cannae; I have a feeling that some commander was wounded by a sling at Thermopylai in 191; during one of the Belgic battles in the Gallic War, one of Caesar's commanders was hit in the mouth by a slingstone (this was discussed by Fundibularius in one of his first posts here).
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #11 - Mar 19th, 2013 at 1:05pm
 
Only about 1 in 14 die from a single hit from a modern rifle, that's why the various armies teach double taps.  Or, the grunt rule of thumb "If he's still moving, you should still be shooting." 

99.99% of all projectiles miss, that why everybody switched to exploding ammo.  So, I can easily believe that most sling ammo, arrows, javelins and what ever distance weapon used probably either missed or only wounded the target.  Didn't you reference a battle in Greece where thousands of slingers and peltrasts engaged several hundred Spartans, and at the end of the day, only about 10% of the Spartans were killed or wounded?
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Thearos
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #12 - Mar 19th, 2013 at 2:24pm
 
Yes, Sphakteria, I think it's 20K slingers etc, with good angles, shooting all day at 420+ Spartans, and killing 130 of them, so 30%. Not helped by the Spartans actually moving out to engage ! Good sign of how they were probably trained to be aggressive, and also that they despised slingers.
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #13 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 12:39am
 
Bill's point sounds reasonable to me.

There may also be the frightening character of a glandes or stone hail on cavalry horses, or the damage it might cause on equipment and armour.

Yet I doubt a bit the representative character of Moog's study (without having read it yet, though). There may be wounds caused by sling projectiles which cannot be identified on (complete???) skeletons 2000 years later (flesh injuries, inner bleedings, infections). Wasn't it Vegetius who mentioned that legionnairies were more afraid of the sling than of any other distance weapon?



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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:19am by Fundibularius »  

Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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Fundibularius
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Re: Moog, Traumatologie
Reply #14 - Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:41am
 
Thearos wrote on Mar 19th, 2013 at 8:20am:
during one of the Belgic battles in the Gallic War, one of Caesar's commanders was hit in the mouth by a slingstone .


Lucius Aurunculeius Cotta, fall of 54 BC at Atuatuca in the Ardennes.

From Caesar's description of the battle (Bellum Gallicum VI, 26-37), we may derive a key role of missiles like  arrows and slingstones. 1 1/2 legions are caught in marching formation in a valley, maybe even in a basin, being bombarded from the (steep?) woody flanks of the surrounding hills by the enemy Eburones. The Roman cavalry is quickly neutralised right at the start. The Romans are confused, act tactically wrong, get lured into futile attacks and false negotiations and are finally, after a whole day of being decimated and demoralized, attacked at close range and destroyed almost entirely.

The greatest losses, btw, that Caesar's forces suffered during the Gallic War in a single battle.
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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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