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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr (Read 8286 times)
Thearos
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Mar 14th, 2013 at 5:34am
 
Good idea. BUT as Bill Skinner pointed out-- the links, which worked when I first installed them, don't work. A bit of a shame, since I had some spare time and thought I'd link to this info, some of which I think is new on this site (clay bullets in Gaul, bullet moulds in Brittany, clay bullets in Carthage, clay bullets in Susa and Ugarit).
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #1 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 6:19am
 
Too much info on the urls Smiley Of course, if you remove them, keywords won't be highlighted but :

Incendiary clay bullets in Belgium, 350 bC (French) info of a La Tène I (say 350 BC) dig with "incendiary clay sling bullets"-- probably identified because such things are mentioned by Caesar. Belgium.

Iron sling bullet? C2AD (French): A dig in the départment of the Vienne in France apparently found an iron sling bullet in the destruction layer of a Roman temple (C2nd AD). I wonder how they identified it.

Lead sling bullets at Knossos, 1500 bC: A report by Charles Picard (not very good archaeologist), on LEAD bullets found at Knossos, in a "chapel". If this is right, if the bullets are indeed bullets, and are not stratigraphical intrusions, then this is proof that lead bullets were used say ca. 1300 BC

Clay sling bullets at Chartage: 1910 dig in Carthage, two ammo dumps, sealed below destruction layer (146 BC): one is rough catapult stones, the other is big dump of CLAY sling bullets. Rather unusual at this date-- do Carthaginians continue the old NE habit of fired clay bullets, or is it because of the siege that they can't get lead ?

Late Neolithic clay bullets Tell Sabi: Late Neolithic settlement. Cache with 2000 clay bullets. Date: 5000-5100 BC ?

Bullets dump, Lambesis, 450aD: Legionary fort at Lambaesis (N. Africa). Dump with 300 catapult shot, and 6000 clay shot (possibly some small marble shot, too). Clay ones are hand-rolled. Date: ca. AD 450 ?

Clay bullets, Iran: Report on digs at Susa. Big cache of clay sling bullets in 'artisan's house', prepared and never used. Ca. 2000 BC ?

Celtic moulds: Mention of sling bullet moulds found in Celtic forts. Apparently the shape, cylindro-ogival, is typical for the region.

Clay bullets, 300bC, France: Jolly good archaeologist, O. Buchenschutz, reporting on a dig: ca 300 BC, clay sling bullets, from Picardie. Scroll upwards for pics.

Report on slingstone cache: Big slingstone cache, in ancient Ugarit. Date must be C16th BC ?.

Bullets from Paris: Mould for sling bullets (inscribed) found in Paris in 1991. Mention made of sling bullets found Rue d'Ulm. Alas, pictures cannot be shown.

Korfmann sling: Korfmann's thesis , on the Childe thesis (bow and sling mutually exclusive)

A short note from the famous history journal, Annales, on slinging: http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/ahess_0395-2649_1949_num_...: arguing that slinging was originally a Medit. weapon, that sling bullets allow the use of the sling in non-Med. ecologies, and that the decline of slinging in the ancient world goes with the "Germanization" of the Roman army. The first point is not quite right. It is true, though, that lead sling bullets died out after a while


Those should work better.

And I will come back later with a short review in english from a slinger's PoV Smiley

The last one is a "discussion" about why Romans abandonned the sling : it may be because of a civilisation change, from mediterranean (sling widely used) to germanic and oriental, more used to the bow. (I did also found this one for my own research Wink )

I will have to complete this list from my own tresor box now... Wink
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« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2013 at 9:21am by Mauro Fiorentini »  

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Thearos
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #2 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 6:34am
 
Thanks-- but now what is lost is the precise page number each time, which I found with searches in persee.fr. If interested, downloard the .pdf and search for "balles de fronde".
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Thearos
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #3 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 6:36am
 
It also is a shame that in the tidying up, what got lost is the two sentence summaries for non-French readers, with, usually, an indication of why the reference mattered-- for instance, that the Knossos one, if correct, is proof of the Mycenaean lead bullets which have been suggested elsewhere (Cyprus) but explained away as weights etc.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #4 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 9:25am
 
Actually, while none of the links -but the one of the article- worked for me before gathering them together, now I can see them all, hope it's the same for everybody because these are really good information  Cheesy
I don't know how to make the links looks like a sentence, so I had to copy the whole url wasting a lot of words, but now that C_A saved up on words I have been able to add these information Thearos provided us  Wink
And I'll delete my first post because it's completely useless, Caldou's one is the one with working links.
Greetings,
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #5 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 11:51am
 
clicked on a couple -  without pics
Basically lol

Are there any pictures in there anywhere ?
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #6 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 12:09pm
 
Topic added to the PG's Index.
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Thearos
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #7 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 2:32pm
 
Yes, some of them have pictures-- a lot of it depends on the type of publication (some of them are reports of publications elsewhere-- basically reading notes; some of them have pics, but cannot be reproduced).

The long report from Lambaesis has some pictures-- p. 44.

Anyway, this is quite a representative sample (there are more), and they unsurprisingly reflect the areas where French scholarship is strong: excavations in France, N. Africa and Syria. I did not include a few more publications from Greece-- Ph. Bruneau's excellent publication of a  sling bullet mould found on Delos (also on the site Cefael), and the various sling bullets from Cyprus published I think by V. Karageorgis, and the publication of the sling bullets in various collections (Alexandria, Froehner collection in Paris).

To repeat myself: the main takeaway points here are documented references to:

1. Lead bullets and moulds, probably Roman but perhaps Celtic, in France
2. Clay bullets in Celtic contexts, starting La Tène II (I did not give references for possible Hallstatt ones)
3. Clay bullets in Carthage
4. Clay bullets in Neolithic and early Bronze Age Near east.
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Thearos
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #8 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 3:31pm
 
The report from Ugarit has a photo of the slingstone heap at fig. 7 (and, at fig. 2, a bronze arrowhead caught within vertebras).

So if you want pics of various clay bullets or sling stones, there are 3 illustrated publications out of the 11 that are reports, or "reports of reports" (I also linked to a book review and a short article). I also recommend reading the publications (I skimmed them)-- some of them are very good pieces of archaeological writing, and the older ones have period charm. They may also help give a sense of how archaeology works (a favorite theme of mine).

I also noted, among the persee.fr results that "balles de fronde" located, a long dispute about whether various paleolithic finds were slingstones, but did not link to them (the dispute seems to ahve been resolved ca. 1920: no).
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Thearos
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 3:40pm
 
Here's another Celtic one (S. France), fig. 7 for an example of the big slingstone ammo dump next to the walls:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/ran_0557-7705_1983_num_16...
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Re: Various bullets information from persee.fr
Reply #10 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 6:54pm
 
Thearos wrote on Mar 14th, 2013 at 3:40pm:
Here's another Celtic one (S. France), fig. 7 for an example of the big slingstone ammo dump next to the walls:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/ran_0557-7705_1983_num_16...

I wish I knew french...
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Slinging in the streets of Paris, C17th
Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2013 at 6:45am
 
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/ingeo_0020-0093_1951_num_...

An article (in French) on C17th Paris and its streets. P. 17: on Sundays, boys gather for violent games and fights, including stone-throwing and slinging, even though the latter was banned in 1637, 1667, 1683. This doesn't look like a mistake or misudnerstanding, because the author (Andrée Bas) seems to refer to specific ordinances. Would be good to have the originals.

So: slinging in C17th France, and in an urban context. Explains why, during the siege of Sancerre in 1572, there are slingers around to shoot bullets; were there slings at the siege of La Rochelle in 1628 ? And of course, why the unrest against Louis XIII was called "La Fronde", the sling-- the weapon was a familiar sight in the hands of street urchins.

I wonder when this practice stopped.
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Re: Slinging in the streets of Paris, C17th
Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2013 at 12:53pm
 
interesting. England had pretty much switched to bows by then. Guess the french held on to the sling a bit longer Thumbs Up

Bloody lethal weapon in an urban environment. Not surprised they were banned.
No large open spaces so every shot is point blank. Could get very nasty, very quickly.
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Re: Slinging in the streets of Paris, C17th
Reply #13 - Mar 15th, 2013 at 6:37pm
 
I would guess that this would be more of a street thug type of weapon than a weapon of war.  And by the mid to late 17th century, the English had switched to guns.

I think that it would be favored as a distance weapon simply because it could be carried at all times and ammo was free, unlike a bow or gun.  It could also be tossed if it looked like the authorties were going to grab you, then later, it could be easily and cheaply replaced.
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Thearos
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Re: Slinging in the streets of Paris, C17th
Reply #14 - Mar 16th, 2013 at 2:47pm
 
Street thug might be a bit strong, since the article seems to describe boys playing with it. They might have shot at each other, but maybe also at things in the streets, squares, yards, etc, of the early modern city.

I notice the same thing happening at Poitiers at the same time:

http://www.archive.org/stream/lapolicemunicip00boisgoog/lapolicemunicip00boisgoo...

Sur les remparts et dans les tours, parfois même dans les rues, les
jeunes « enfants et garçons de boutique et même de grands fai-
néans et gens mariez », dit une ordonnance, s'assemblent pour se
battre à coups de pierre, de fronde, de bâtons, amusements dange-
reux ou l'on relève des tués et des blessés.
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« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2013 at 9:01am by Thearos »  
 
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