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Leather sling pouches from York, UK. (Read 14659 times)
Mauro Fiorentini
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Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Feb 27th, 2013 at 8:52am
 
Hallo friends!
We already had some discussions about these (http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=search2 among others), but I haven't been able to find pictures of these finds.
So here they are:

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Leather pouches, dating 9th-11th Century a.D.
You can read about them on Leather and leatherworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York, The archaeology of York, Volume 17, General editor R. A. Hall, Council for British Archaeology, 2003.
It's a pdf that can be easily found on the net.
Greetings,
Mauro.
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David Morningstar
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #1 - Feb 27th, 2013 at 11:05am
 

That is a great picture. The biggest of them is still small, and the smallest is tiny. They certainly look like sling pouches, but I'm not 100% convinced.

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Bill Skinner
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #2 - Feb 27th, 2013 at 11:57am
 
This is not a challange, if they are not sling pouches, then what are they?  Several of them look like the lining of a Baleric style sling, a couple look like pouches for slings and the rest look like they are or could be pouches for slings.  And I recall the thread about a hairpiece or ponytail holder, I didn't think it was correct, either.
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #3 - Feb 27th, 2013 at 12:24pm
 
Reading the text that goes with these pictures, it seems that the possibility of them being sling pouches was seriously considered. They were aware of the Hedeby identifications and others.

However some of them at least were considered too small and made from material unsuitable for such a use. This was the opinion of Thom Richardson (as in writer of well-known article on slings) when shown some of the pieces.

Rather hilariously they mention in passing a similar item found in Southampton which was described as a shoe tongue, but which long-term members will remember Slingbadger pestered them to change  to a sling pouch.  Smiley

The authors suggest that they might be associated with guides to straps or belts. They have certainly considered the possibility of them being sling pouches, but they seem not to feel definitive about their identification.

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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #4 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 6:44am
 
The big hole in the large one could have been a result of  the leather rotting. All it takes is a small hole or weak spot and the rot can set in.  It also depends on the soil conditions, which is not mentioned in the article. Some of the artifacts were actually stitched together from thin pieces, also.
  I say we slingers make pouches based on the sizes and dimensions of these and give them a try. Were the ones with the experience, not the academics.
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lakeslinger
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #5 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 7:18am
 
slingbadger wrote on Feb 28th, 2013 at 6:44am:
... I say we slingers make pouches based on the sizes and dimensions of these and give them a try. Were the ones with the experience, not the academics.  


Very good idea. I already made a real-size template of the smallest one (15767) and will give a try if or how it works.
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #6 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 10:11am
 
The stitchmarks on the sides of the leather pieces do rather fit the sling pouch hypothesis.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #7 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 11:49am
 
Topic added to the PG's Index.
I agree with both slingbadger and Thearos even if I think these pouches are small too.
By the way I managed to handle some ancient knives in the past and I've found them to be small too, for my hands.
Don't know if it means something, though...
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Mauro.
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squirrelslinger
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #8 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 11:19pm
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 1st, 2013 at 11:49am:
Topic added to the PG's Index.
I agree with both slingbadger and Thearos even if I think these pouches are small too.
By the way I managed to handle some ancient knives in the past and I've found them to be small too, for my hands.
Don't know if it means something, though...
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro, you bring up an excellent point. I have taken multiple history courses, and while i am not sure about this, I think that nutrition improved dramiticly after the black death, and this allowed people(children) to grow larger. We all know that two identical twins, one malnourished, one fed but not "fat" the fed one will be taller and stronger if they lived the same. We do know that stone age people were shorter than modern people. It seems that once humans had a stable food source, it helped them grow larger. Also, this could be becuase we are all part neadethal, but back then people were not "alloyed" with them (for lack of a better term). Also, after the argicultural revolution, people were larger and better fed. There is archeological evidence for this, I just cant remember all of what we talked about in a class I slept in ever other day Cheesy
I think that mostly explains the smaller knives. plus that there was reduced reliance on knives, more on that later.
More evidence- The people with the most varied foods have historicly been the conquerors, not the conquerees.
-Squirrel

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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #9 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 2:49pm
 
I'm not sure there will ever be enough evidence to decide the matter.

They do seem generally a little small, and I don't think that people being smaller then than now (which I'm not sure was even the case here) explains that. Particularly, you need a pouch big enough to hold a projectile which is big enough to do it's job, and that doesn't depend on the size of the slinger.

I wonder if a discarded sling would find its way into town dumps etc. I would have thought they were more likely to be discarded when they broke in use, which probably would be somewhere else, such as wild-fowling by the river.

As far as ground conditions, I think all these artefacts came from waterlogged anaerobic environments, York is on the River Ouse and is quite low lying, it still regularly floods. Much of the land around there was historically marshy. Couldn't tell you the pH though Smiley.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #10 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 3:25pm
 
You made me think about the fact that leather tends to shrink when it's dry.
Could it be the case here?
Thearos?
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Mauro.
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #11 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 7:58pm
 
Keep in mind that most modern slingers seem to make their pouches rather big for their choice in ammo. (And most modern slinger's choice in ammo also seems to be bigger than what some areas seemed to find sufficient. Some even had ammo as light as an ounce or so.)
For a 3-4oz stone, You only really need a pouch about 1.5"/3cm wide, and maybe 4"/10cm long. Anything more than that is really just peace of mind/versatility for extremes. (It's one reason my slings have such long, yet narrow pouches)

It may not be that these are "small" pouches, it's that they likely kept their pouches as small as possible to reduce drag. That's my theory. Although in reality it's likely a combination of several factors, like leather shrinkage. Tongue

Just my two cents
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #12 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 8:21pm
 
Can someone tell me where to find the actual measurments, please. 

I have a friend who found a leather shoe from the US Civil War.  When he got finished stabalizing it, it might have fit a skinny 6 year old.  Between being in an old filled in outhouse for over 100 years and however he stabilized it, the leather shrunk to smaller than 1/2 is original size.  Could that have happened?
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #13 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 10:17pm
 
Bill I think you are very correct.
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
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Re: Leather sling pouches from York, UK.
Reply #14 - Mar 3rd, 2013 at 6:34am
 
I have the book. I'll look it up
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The greatest of all the accomplishments of 20th cent. science has been the discovery of human ignorance  The main difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits.-Einstein   I'm getting psychic as I get older. Or is that psychotic?
 
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