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Thearos

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Javelins
Feb 5^th, 2013 at 1:18pm

I'm interested in javelins. They played an important role in early Greek warfare-- Homer is full of thrown spears, and they clearly are important into the C7th at least, when heavy infantry, probably elite, even when carrying double-grip shield (the "aspis") and wearing armour, go into battle with two spears, one for throwing (often has throwing thong) and one for stabbing.

How far can you throw a war javelin ? Not a dart, but a tall thing, a bit taller than a man perhaps, tipped with iron.

How hard does it hit ? Can it pierce a bronze-faced shield ? A bronze cuirass ? A jerkin ?

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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: Javelins
Reply #1 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 1:33pm

Thearos, I made a replica of a 5th C. javelin that's shown in the Museum we visited, and tested it for quite a long time.
I used to throw it 10 times a day, 2 days a week for 3 months, against a wooden board 2 centimeters thick placed 10 paces away.
The javelin head was very simple but it worked well; it was fixed on the handle by pressure only, no nails.
At the end of the first 2 weeks (which means after 40 throws of which 36 were successful and hit the target) the board was totally destroyed and I had to reinforce it with iron bars.
I've never tried it at a distance, though - not enough space.
By the way I'm here for any further question you might have, as is my javelin whenever you'd like to see it

By the way you can find an interesting information on javelin throwers used as auxiliaria by the Roman army in Silio Italico "Punic wars", book V, 208-219, where Silio describes a Picenian attack with javelins and say those javelins "bend" once they hit the target (where you can also find a description of which were the damages of both lead glans and javelins - check book I, 505-530).
Greetings,
Mauro.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Javelins Reply #2 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 1:37pm Very interesting, thanks. How heavy do you think it was ?
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Mauro Fiorentini Forum Moderation Offline Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3442 Ancona, Italy. Gender:	Re: Javelins Reply #3 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 1:48pm I'm in a hurry now but will measure it this evening, weight too! I will also post pictures, unfortunately I do not have pics of the board which was, however, made of centennial oak. I had already forged a different kind of javelin head but when I finished it, I didn't have a target anymore Greetings, Mauro.
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squirrelslinger

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Re: Javelins
Reply #4 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:16pm

Jabames made a sort of dart-javalin and sent me pics while I was ranting on skype. inspired by him, I mae a sorta shortish javalin...
its fletched, so not truly a javalin... cold-forged steel forshaft, from rod stock, then I used a small piece of stone to finish the edges, and a file to grind them.
I have not thrown it yet.
does anyone here have signifigant experiance cold-forging?
I am completly out of charcoal, wood, etc. minus some rotten stuff on the woodpile...
might be able to temper stuff, but nothing big.
I have a 4 pound blacksmithy hammer and a old bulldozer tooth for anivel. it works great(the bulldozer tooth is >50 pounds)
I have some bar-stock and rod-stock, and some 16 and 12 guage plate.
thanks,
-Squirrel
And I LOVE javalins, my personal primitive weapon pick is a a bow, but If I make it myself, a Javalin, then a bow, then a sling(it just aint accurate enough)

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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Javelins Reply #5 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:26pm David Morningstar did a lot of messing about with javelins, methinks. What's your range ?
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squirrelslinger

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Re: Javelins
Reply #6 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 3:48pm

my range is around 20-30 feet accurate- just a plain javelin. no throwing aids. just a plain old javelin. With a throwing-string thing(not sure what it is called) I can throw close to 50 feet... accurately. at a 35ish angle, I can throw close to 60-70 feet.
NOTE THIS IS FEET, NOT YARDS!!!
-Squirrel
Definition of accurately is being able to hit a 55 gallon drum 8 out of 10 times.

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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."

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Mauro Fiorentini Forum Moderation Offline Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3442 Ancona, Italy. Gender:	Re: Javelins Reply #7 - Feb 5^th, 2013 at 5:46pm Squirrel, if you don't use heath, you're not forging You forge when you enrich iron with carbon! Greetings, Mauro.
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Thearos

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Re: Javelins
Reply #8 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 4:32am

One type of javelin used by ancient Spaniards was the "soliferrum" (can't remember the name the Greeks used), which is basically a long iron rod with a barbed point. I assume they won't travel far, but can be used for throwing just before encounter. Hypothesis: this is part of a Western Mediterranean tradition, like the Roman pilum, of very heavy javelins used en masse before swordwork. Unlike long range javelin fighting, which you see in the E. Med, be it by heavy infantry or by lights.

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Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Javelins Reply #9 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 7:00am I believe the barbed javelins were more used as stabbing spears that lodged in the victims flesh and distracted him while you finished him off with a sword. Could be wrong but defintiely read that somewhere and it made sense
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Masiakasaurus

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Re: Javelins
Reply #10 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 7:23am

It depends. On some spears the barbs prevented over penetration so that whatever the javelin struck was less balanced, on some the barbs made it hard to pull the spear out so that the victim would have to discard whatever the javelin struck (such as a shield) or the medic would have a hard time removing the javelin from the victim, and on some spears (not javelins) the barbs were actually to trap and parry an opponents weapon.

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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all.
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Javelins Reply #11 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 7:33am How much space do you need to throw a javelin ? Romans did it in formation. Early hoplites did it. How much space between ranks ?
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Mauro Fiorentini Forum Moderation Offline Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3442 Ancona, Italy. Gender:	Re: Javelins Reply #12 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 7:40am Using the short javelin of which I wrote above (which is shorter than me, say 150 centimeters but I'll be more precise later) I need to have about 120 free centimeters behind me and 50 on the right side. Greetings, Mauro.
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Javelins Reply #13 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 9:43am So let's say a step and a half behind you. Interesting.
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David Morningstar

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Re: Javelins
Reply #14 - Feb 6^th, 2013 at 10:10am

You dont need a vast amount of space as long as you dont turn/swing it about horizontally. Mine was a rough approximation of the Roman auxiliaries Verutum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmPSKu6-TMM

I could carry and quickly reload with a javelin between each finger of the other hand, four reloads and one ready. I held them point upwards about half way between the amentum and the point so they were hanging tail down. The amenta were easy to put the throwing fingers into, then grab the shaft, take it from the holding hand and swing the tail end of the javelin back and up. The point doesnt move very far during this process.

Even my skinny javelin (smaller than the one filmed, it is this one but with the tail end slimmed down to shift the balance forward http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AA227&name=Arms+%26+Armor+Greek+Jav... ) is astoundingly stabby. I reckon that with a decently sharp point and a good straight delivery you should see the point sticking out of the back of an unarmoured person.

There are some photos here from the British Museum of Greek war javelins with the ankyle (amentum) in use: https://picasaweb.google.com/114171463053197277461/BritishMuseum#582172992958294
9298

[EDIT] Look what I just found Cool

http://www.academia.edu/1406260/Throwing_the_Greek_Dory_How_Effective_is_the_Att...

http://www.coloradomesa.edu/shared/facprofiles/documents/EfficacyoftheAnkyleinIn...

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