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concrete vs stone (Read 324 times)
perpetualstudent
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concrete vs stone
Jul 30th, 2012, 6:17pm
 
So I was looking at paleoarts' new clubs and I wondered, especially for warclubs, how well would concrete do instead of stone? Concrete, while comparatively new, has been around for at least 2 thousand years. Instead of pecking or grinding a stone into shape you simply cast it into shape. So if you had both options, would there be an advantage to using stone over the concrete?
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Donnerschlag
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #1 - Jul 30th, 2012, 9:23pm
 
This idea really intrigues me. I've been intending to make an Egyptian war club with a spherical head for a while now, but I just never got around to it.  
 
 
I wonder if adding a loose coil of electric fence wire/coat-hanger into the concrete would improve the integrity of the club? (Like re-bar)
If you did do this, I imagine that it would be best to use the high-strength concrete/cement/mortar mixes at your local DIY store for this. Take that with a grain of salt though, since I've never done this myself either. I'm just typing whatever my brain craps out.  Tongue
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Bill Skinner
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #2 - Jul 30th, 2012, 10:37pm
 
I've never really had any problems breaking up concrete with a hammer, I usually have to work pretty hard to break chunks of rock down.  The rocks are used for knapping and they are pretty tough.  I think a concrete warclub head will last a long time if all you hit is flesh and bone but if your target is wearing metal armor, I don't think it will last long, nor will it stand up to blocking and parrying other weapons and shields.
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #3 - Jul 31st, 2012, 6:25am
 
Stone and stone can be quite different,just like concrete.
Basalt,granite and other tough stones will be probably quite a bit stronger than most if not any concrete.
Like Bill said, for softer targets,a good concrete mix with Donnerschlag's  idea of putting some wire coil in it,would work.
The advantage would be the look imo,and durability,if it's made of hard,dense stone.
Also dense stones are heavier than concrete,that's also an advantage.  
A concrete headed war club would be like better wallhanger sword,me thinks, good for easy jobs,breaks at harder ones,also being cheaper and faster to produce.
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #4 - Jul 31st, 2012, 8:47am
 
Just like anything else, there can be a whole spectrum from garden variety to high tech and exotic.
I used to be dubious about the strength of concrete, and then I had to do a penetration through a Spancrete floor ... I needed some serious equipment and really had to WANT to get through that stuff.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #5 - Jul 31st, 2012, 9:22am
 
A lot of the problems with breaking concrete and rocks is where you hit it.  If you hit a big thick slab in the middle, not much will happen except you will get tired pretty quick, you may knock up a few chips.  Start on the edge and it is a different story, especially if you can dig underneath it and leave the spot unsupported.  Unless you make it really thick, which will be unweildly in combat, it will probably break around the socket.  But you may be able to cast a globular type and put it in some sort of metal net or cage?  Or wood if the concrete is cast so the wood won't be part of the impacting surface.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #6 - Aug 10th, 2012, 12:56pm
 
This idea hasn't stopped nagging in the back of my head, so I got a book about concrete. The author makes the argument that a form of concrete can be argued to predate permanent villages and agriculture. He also argues that the quality varies a lot, the concrete that the pantheon was made of is superb. It will set underwater (called hydraulic) and has enormous strength. Archeologist Auguste Perret, said "go to Rome and try to break the old Roman concrete with an axe; you will only dent the steel".
 
I worked precast and pre-stressed concrete one summer. We made pieces for bridges and stadiums. The mixes (type amount of sand, type and amount of aggregate, various catalysts)varied from job to job as does the amount and types of reinforcement.  And each piece has stronger and weaker places. I really don't know. Overall the book I'm reading argues that most of the concrete we know is inferior to Roman concrete and will need to be replaced. We avoided rediscovering better concrete because we added reinforcement which the Romans did not and it's only comparatively recently that we have rediscovered the stronger type of concrete. If you used reinforcement, a good aggregate and hydraulic concrete I really would be interested in seeing how well a club made up of it would compare to stone.  
 
Depending on what my conclusions are after finishing the book I might have to procure and compare the two.
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #7 - Aug 10th, 2012, 6:03pm
 
I'd be really curious to see the fruits of your labor on this. I could see like a New Zealend Mere being made fairly easily and you could put some kind of U of wire inside the club.  
 
http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Mere_Club
I'm not sure if this is possible but I would think the finer the concrete, the sturdier it would be. Maybe you could use a flour sifter or something like that to get some super fine concrete mix.
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Re: concrete vs stone
Reply #8 - Aug 11th, 2012, 11:01am
 
I'd have to agree that modern concrete doesn't match roman concrete. AFAIK, we've had the technology to recreate their formula for a long time but it's just not cost effective to go brought all that trouble because we don't use our concrete in the same way the Romans used their.
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