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Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings (Read 11850 times)
bernardz
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #15 - Jul 9th, 2012 at 10:17pm
 
Infantry troops with shields up would make something like a wall that could protect the soldiers behind. I am sure a highly disciplined army would make a better shield wall then a disorganized horde.

Furthermore I remember reading an account in a novel of archers in ancient Greece. The writer's claim which has a ring of truth to it, was that the main damage done by archer against Greek infantry was during the battle when the heavy infantry was locked into its opponent. The archers weaved around the battlefield got shots at soldiers who had their shields down because they were distracted by the fighting. I suspect that a slinger would be in a similar position.







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Bill Skinner
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #16 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 10:39am
 
As for armor, look at the clothing of the time, the leather was not split or shaved as it is today, so a leather vest or coat would would be much thicker and provide some pretty good protection, as would a leather hat.  The linen, felt, and wool clothing was much thicker than what is worn today, it also provided good protection.
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bernardz
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #17 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 10:05pm
 
Bill Skinner wrote on Jul 10th, 2012 at 10:39am:
As for armor, look at the clothing of the time, the leather was not split or shaved as it is today, so a leather vest or coat would would be much thicker and provide some pretty good protection, as would a leather hat.  The linen, felt, and wool clothing was much thicker than what is worn today, it also provided good protection.


I could see such armor being useful against bows and arrows but much less against a sling shot.


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David Morningstar
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #18 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 3:16am
 
Vegetius mentions that flexible armour is no protection against sling stones.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #19 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 9:40am
 
That is why they wore hauberks under maile.  Most Roman soldigers  wore mail over a red wool tunic.  Unsplit leather from the chest and buttocks of a bull is 1/2 inch (12mm-14mm) thick, and unless oiled, fairly stiff and won't fold up around a stone.  OTOH, if the leather is over a bone and the rock is large, it will transmit most of the force right on through.  I don't know if it will stop a lead gland, I suspect it probably will stop or at least slow down most.
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jlasud
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #20 - Jul 16th, 2012 at 4:31am
 
I'm quite sure that 12mm leather would stop,ricochet,contain a 30-40g lead gland.It would probably still make a bruise under,unless a good subarmalis is worn underneath it.If a 105g lead bullet with DEXAI written on it is in the equation...then the wearer is having a bad day.
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bernardz
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #21 - Aug 8th, 2012 at 2:11am
 
jlasud wrote on Jul 16th, 2012 at 4:31am:
I'm quite sure that 12mm leather would stop,ricochet,contain a 30-40g lead gland.It would probably still make a bruise under,unless a good subarmalis is worn underneath it.If a 105g lead bullet with DEXAI written on it is in the equation...then the wearer is having a bad day.


The Spanish soldiers facing American Indians, stated that a sling could go though steel armor.

The Wikipedia states this: "While Spanish armour was very effective against most of the Andean weapons, it was not impenetrable to maces, clubs, or slings." and quotes two references
^ Jay O. Sanders. "The Great Inca Rebellion"
^ Jane Penrose (2005). Slings in the Iron Age


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jlasud
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #22 - Aug 8th, 2012 at 2:45pm
 
maces,clubs and slings deal blunt damage,rather than piercing. A huge hit from a blunt weapon can transfer shock,concussion through armor,which can cause wounds or be even lethal,if the spanish guy gets a big hit on the helmet.Armor will just bend ,but still can cause a bad bruise,broken rib,cracked skull,K.O. etc.
No penetration involved,with stones and ceramics,and lead bullets were usually too small weight and lead too soft to penetrate.Andeans probably didn't used lead projectiles,at least i know.
The nobels might had used gold bullets,as i read from Masika's post if i remember correctly,but not sure bout that one though. Even tempered armour piercing arrowheads have a hard time piercing plate armor,shot from a warbow.
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #23 - Aug 16th, 2012 at 3:57pm
 
i must say you are well spoken, Jlasud. however, in mine backyard, i have observed 500g steel bulletheaded nails go right into thick 1/4 steel. however, they only severely dent or puncture. i have never had a nail go into a propane tank(i shoot at empty propane tanks that have been decommissioned after years of service to factories) i am always able to pull them out. i make the nails from 5/8 steel rods, and grind the points. they are around 7-8 inches long. they typically penetrate around 1-1 1/2 inches on impact at point blank range.
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Re: Ancient and Medieval casualty rates to slings
Reply #24 - May 31st, 2013 at 2:59am
 
There has been much said here about missile weapons and armor... which is an important discussion... but one that seems a bit off.

Archery and it's arrows perform abysmally against the vast majority of armor forms... whether discussing thick felt armor, hard leather or linnen, lamellar, chain, bronze or steel plate, or even the humble layered cloth of a jacked coat. While it is true special arrows were developed to be more effective against specific armor forms... even these only incrementally increased effectiveness as such issues as range and armor quality became relevant. Of course, archery's superior accuracy and rate of fire still make it useful anyway, even against armored opponents... however it is also important to note that most historical armies are rather lacking in armor... though rarely lacking in shields which are also grand at shutting down archery.

In stark contrast the sling is noted for being much more effective against armored opponents than archery. Vegetius is a famous example of this as are the reports form the Spaniards in MesoAmerica (vs Plate no less). While yes, a good helmet does tend to shut down that sweet instakill, how long your helmet lasts and can continue that function depends greatly on the helm. But much more importantly warfare isn't about instakilling... it's about taking folks out of a fight and about making them lose the will to fight. And while helms may shut down instakills, slings will still break the bones of the face, body, and limbs... especially the joints... through most armor far more often than most other weapons. Which is more ideal anyway... what good are the dead? A wounded soldier can be put to work, sold into slavery, or ransomed back home, incorporated into your army, sacrificed (see Aztecs), made examples of, interrogated for info, on and on ... far more productive than a disease ridden rotting dead body. And yes, shields are great for blocking missile weapons... but therein is another sling advantage... quantity of ammunition (mwahaha)... every arrow is expensive... and you are quite limited in your amount of them... not so with slings... sure they are likely to block if they are paying attention... but thats just the thing: "likely." With a sling, you have far more chances  Smiley (despite the superior rate of fire potential of the bow). And it has also been mentioned that a slung lead bullet is by far the most difficult missile to block in terms of it's speed and near invisibility in flight... that is HUGE.

As for javelins and other thrown spears... they have the shortest range, the slowest flight speed, the easiest to see coming, the greatest expense, the most encumberance. So shields are MOST effective against these. And while their mass gives them an advantage over arrows in terms of vs armor... armor still works rather well against them, for many of the same reasons it does against arrows... so better against armor than arrows... not as good as slings against armor.

Now of course, all of these weapons of war have their place. The most effective armies employ all of them (and more)... diversity equals stability and the well employed mixed armies are the best (see Alexander and the Roman empire). But I will say that of all of these the sling has the most overall awesome and versatility... and we have the facts and logic to back that up.
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