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Forced March time/rate question (Read 338 times)

xxkid123

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Forced March time/rate question
Jun 28^th, 2012, 1:53am

Hey, a question to y'all, especially to ex-military and hikers. How long would it take you to travel 25 miles with 50 pounds on your back, maybe another 25 on your body? What about 50 miles? Basically I've heard a few times that Romans had an average forced march pace of 25 miles in 5 hours. Or that modern military is expected to be able to march 50 miles in less than 10 hours, with full gear.

But, the average marathon runner, going at a slow running pace, runs 26 miles in around 4:45. In other words, a person trained only to run long distances, without added bulk (muscle and fat, and packs and supplies), in specially designed running equipment goes slightly faster than an extremely well muscled (or dense) man with over half his weight on his back...walking/marching very quickly.

So are these claims true, and infantry really is trained to have a massive and fast stride, or is it wrong?

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Rat Man

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #1 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 5:21am

I know in basic training we did several forced marches up to 24 miles in full gear including weapons (in deep sand). Unfortunately I don't recall exactly what the gear weighed but it was probably around fifty pounds. Also I don't recall exactly how long it took but we did it in one summer night. What was funny was that guys used to fall asleep marching and stagger off into the woods. We'd throw stones at each other to wake us up when this happened. Also guys would have mild hallucinations from severe sleep deprivation and suddenly serve to avoid a large purple spot that wasn't really there. But anyway an army can do a forced march with full gear of 24 miles in one night. Keep in mind that these were all strong, motivated, young guys at the peak of physical fitness near the end of basic training.

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Dan

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #2 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 9:34am

8 miles a day is a reasonable for non hikers. Normally hikers do about 10-15 miles to make sure they have energy for the next day and time to set up camp, 25 is pretty much the maxium you can do in a day with a pack. Now if you are also hiking through the night and have extreme motivation (like you'll be killed or you won't pass training if you don't stop walking) and you can go much further.

So with a 50lbd pack, on mountain trails, 25 miles could either be one really long day or two normal days.

Not quite sure about the military standards, but I know in SF training they do a lot of ruck marches and it's pretty similar in most military training so they aren certainately more prepared than most.

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perpetualstudent

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #3 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 10:08am

My understanding is that there are averages and then there are feats. The Romans force marching that far I think is more a feat than an average. And there's the fact that romans had built as many well maintained roads as they had. Also the question of how much they carried with them for a forced march like that.

It is a good question. To answer your question specifically, I think you could do 25 miles in one day if you had a decent road you could do it even without much training if someone was pushing you. Whether or not you could move the next day is another question...
It's one of the amazing things of the human body, you can push it (with will or necessity) far beyond what you can normally do. Your body will take it and then crash later. The further beyond your limit you push, the longer it takes to recover. On a smaller scale you see this in people who work out for the first time in years and do what they used to do. Most of the time they can manage it. The next time they work out they won't be able to, their body can't maintain that anymore.

As an example of a feat, I remember reading a book by one of the founding members of delta force and they had a 40 mile hike as their final test. Cross country, light pack and weapon.

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Teg

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #4 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 10:38am

I can give you actual data for 100 km marches:
Equipment: Usually backpack with a second pair of shoes, first aid kit, water and food, spare cloths and rain protection
Additionally the things you wear (boots etc.)
The deadline for such marches is usually 24 hours
The fastest groups usually need around 17 to 18 hours, the slowest close to or slightly more than 24 hours.
Approx percentages: 80% finish it in time, 15% give up due to exhaustion/injuries or are taken out of the race by the medics (cramps, blocked knee, ...), and 5% need more than 24 hours
Consider that the participants are well trained and motivated men (and a few women) in the age of 18 to 25

For 35 km marches (no forced march) with full gear (20 - 25 kg in total) in winter (some snow on the streets) at day marching times are between 6 and 8 hours. Again participants are men around 18 to 25 (not so well trained and motivated as the ones above).
This means walking paces between 4.5 and 6 km/h (compared to 8 km/h, which is practically running, for your 25 miles in 5 hours).
Usually less than 5% will not finish the march.

If you want to compare this times I'll give you here my hiking calculation:
I estimate a walking pace of 5 km/h. I add 1 hour per 300 m of heigth difference (ascent) and 1 hour for 600 m of heigth difference (descent). At the end I add 10% of the total time (the blister bonus) and 1-2 hour for breaks (dependent on distance: 30 min for less than 5 km, 1h for less than 20 km, 2h for more than 20 km). This gives a good upper time limit if I organize hiking trips for "untrained" people (but no couch potatos). Therefore if you do 35 km it would take 7 hours plus 1 hour blister bonus and 2 hours breaks = 10 hours maximal time.

Therefore I think that 25 miles in 5 hour (with 20 kg backpack) is possible for VERY well trained people. The 50 miles in 10 hours with full gear I think is a bit exagerated.

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Bill Skinner

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #5 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 1:04pm

To travel 25 miles while carrying about 50 pounds takes less than 8 hours or your battalion fails. 85% have to finish in their unit. Helmet, flak, cartridge belt with 2 one quart canteens, fanny pack with a meal, personal weapon, crew served weapons, pack with a list of required stuff, and another 2 canteens stuffed in the pockets, another meal, ammo, ammo for the crew served weapons, radios, batteries and all sorts of other crap that some pogue decided you couldn't live without. That was for the MCCREs, Marine Corps Combat Readyness Evaluation, You usually averadged only about 2 drops per company, and they were usually heat cases. Normal load is closer to 100 pounds, unless you are lugging parts of a 81mm mortar, a heavy machine gun or some of the radios. Then, you are carrying around 125 to 150 pounds.

Certain jobs, such as infantry, or people who have been used as infantry, have about 40% file disability claims for messed up feet, ankles, knees, hips and back problems. The human body is not designed to carry more than about 1/3 of its body weight for anything except short distances.

As Teg pointed out, terrian and weather will also really effect how far and how fast you march, some snow and/or ice will really slow you down. You will shorten your stride to keep your balance. And going down hill is actually harder than going up.

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xxkid123

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #6 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 8:31pm

Thanks for all the replies guys (hehe it rhymes Roll Eyes

).

I had no doubt that soldiers could do a 24 mile trek, but I wasn't sure if they could do it in 5 hours with heavy load. Heck, I highly doubt more than a hundred human beings in modern times can do that with a heavy pack. I would think 6 hours might be doable for the ultra fit, but 5 just seems amazing. I dunno, the longest I've ever walked in a single go was a few years ago and that was 10 miles, leisurely pace. The best I can guess is that without a pack, the slowest a human can possibly jog (or at least my track team) is just a tiny tiny tiny bit faster than the fastest we can walk (around 12mph). So going by that, you couldn't possibly march faster than 5mph, or 25 miles in 5 hours, and you'd have to do be in ultra fit condition to be able to keep it up. Either that, or maybe I'm just a fat American Grin

never mind my ramblings now...

There's no break, there's no end, just a-living on;
Wide awake, with a smile, going on and on.

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Bill Skinner

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Re: Forced March time/rate question
Reply #7 - Jun 28^th, 2012, 8:45pm

25 miles in 5 hours is doable. That's a 12 minute mile. It would be jog, walk, jog or a slow shuffle the entire time. Helmet, body armor, weapon and ammo will be around 35 pounds. No crew served weapons or SAWs. You would have to work up to it, you couldn't go do it cold. You would still loose about 10 to 15 percent to injuries, and only about 35 to 40 percent would finish in a group, the remainder would trickle in over the next hour.

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