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Early Europeans in America (Read 808 times)
bigkahuna
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Early Europeans in America
Jun 16th, 2012, 6:33am
 
I think this is really exciting. New evidence has appeared that stone age Europeans crossed the frozen North Atlantic into America some 10,000 years before the Asiatic migration across the Bering Sea took place.There is a new book coming out this month called"Across Atlantic Ice", by Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian and Bruce Bradley of the University of Exeter (UK). Part of this has to do with DNA findings that are related to European groups from the same period. Also comparison of stone tools, some found in the US seem to have been made from French flint. Any of you knappers been salting sites again???? Grin Grin
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Bikewer
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #1 - Jun 16th, 2012, 6:44am
 
The "Solutrean hypothesis" has been floating around for a while, and evidence keeps accumulating.  A very nice Solutrean spearhead was recovered from East coast waters by a fishing boat just recently.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #2 - Jun 16th, 2012, 8:04am
 
I've seen a lot of solutrean hypothesis stuff.  None of the pre-contact/paleo-indian archaeologists I've interacted with give it much credence.  They're not rude about it, and they're willing to give it a fair hearing, but they're skeptical as can be.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #3 - Jun 16th, 2012, 8:24am
 
John, this is not a new theory  Smiley
It all begun when some archaeologists found votive stone hoards in North America that are 100% similar to some Northern Spain-South France ones.
I mean purposely broken bifaces and stuff like this. The theory (which I agree with) is that during the last Ice Age (20-19'000 years b.C.) North America and Spain/France were linked by an ice crost, and that these early Europeans crossed it.
The biggest flawl is the reason why some people should travel across a huge glacier!
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #4 - Jun 16th, 2012, 2:01pm
 
To escape religious persecution.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #5 - Jun 16th, 2012, 4:35pm
 
My people's ancestors(first people to come to America) had french style stone tools,  guess it was the hottest thing back then kinda like the latest technology nd stuff.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #6 - Jun 16th, 2012, 4:39pm
 
Quote from Little on Jun 16th, 2012, 4:35pm:
My people's ancestors(first people to come to America) had french style stone tools,  guess it was the hottest thing back then kinda like the latest technology nd stuff.

 
What people? Seems there's some debate as to who got here first.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #7 - Jun 16th, 2012, 4:44pm
 
Not sure,  but I guess it was before there was distinct peoples,  before they broke up into different indigenous peoples.  But when they came to Alaska they found out that there wasnt as many knapping materials so most had to adapt.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #8 - Jun 16th, 2012, 8:13pm
 
Quote from Mauro Fiorentini on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:24am:
John, this is not a new theory  Smiley
It all begun when some archaeologists found votive stone hoards in North America that are 100% similar to some Northern Spain-South France ones.
I mean purposely broken bifaces and stuff like this. The theory (which I agree with) is that during the last Ice Age (20-19'000 years b.C.) North America and Spain/France were linked by an ice crost, and that these early Europeans crossed it.
The biggest flawl is the reason why some people should travel across a huge glacier!
Greetings,
Mauro.

 
 
maybe they crossed to follow a food soures.....or maybe they did it just because it was there to be crossed.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #9 - Jun 16th, 2012, 8:35pm
 
Quote from Liberty dog on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:13pm:
Quote from Mauro Fiorentini on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:24am:
John, this is not a new theory  Smiley
It all begun when some archaeologists found votive stone hoards in North America that are 100% similar to some Northern Spain-South France ones.
I mean purposely broken bifaces and stuff like this. The theory (which I agree with) is that during the last Ice Age (20-19'000 years b.C.) North America and Spain/France were linked by an ice crost, and that these early Europeans crossed it.
The biggest flawl is the reason why some people should travel across a huge glacier!
Greetings,
Mauro.



maybe they crossed to follow a food soures.....or maybe they did it just because it was there to be crossed.

 
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #10 - Jun 17th, 2012, 11:06am
 
National Geographic did a nice program on the idea last year.   Essentially, at the time indicated, much of the North was under a sheet of ice that covered most all the Northern latitudes.
As contemporary Inuits and other such folks do...They "follow the ice" when hunting.  Using small boats and following the "shore", they hunt, set up camps, eat what they kill, and move on.
The idea is that such groups could have fairly easily arrived in the New World in a fairly timely fashion, and found highly-habitable and largely unihabited lands.    
No competitors back then....
Anthropologist have suggested for years that "Kennewick man" did not conform to any of the markers for more contemporary Amerind peoples, and pre-dated them as well.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #11 - Jun 17th, 2012, 12:17pm
 
You have to be careful about the European flint tools, quite a few came over as ballast in the holds of ships.   From the period of 1500 to about 1600, the NA were still making knapped stone tools and they also used the flint that European ships dropped.  
 
Even today, knappers such as Luke Webb pick up those ballast stones and make tools from them.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #12 - Jun 17th, 2012, 5:26pm
 
Iberia not Siberia
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #13 - Jun 17th, 2012, 7:40pm
 
Quote from Bill Skinner on Jun 17th, 2012, 12:17pm:
You have to be careful about the European flint tools, quite a few came over as ballast in the holds of ships.   From the period of 1500 to about 1600, the NA were still making knapped stone tools and they also used the flint that European ships dropped.  

Even today, knappers such as Luke Webb pick up those ballast stones and make tools from them.

 
Yes, archaologists have to be careful.... I recall speculation that the Chinese had reached the West coast of the Americas in ancient times....Based on Chinese "Junk" anchor stones found in places like San Francisco Bay.
However, it was then found that Chinese vessels used these ancient stones for ballast, hundreds of years later in contemporary times.
The Nat Geo show mentioned a number of "waves" of migration of Siberian peoples across the land-bridge of the Bering straits area.    
They have identified at least three, leading to the minor genetic/ethnic variances between Amerind peoples.
It's also possible that some South American indegenes had yet different origins.... But that's very speculative.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #14 - Jun 18th, 2012, 9:29am
 
would it not make more sense for people to cross from siberia to alaska and then simply filter their way south into the continent at large.  
 
given that this was a more or less permament bridge then and a much shorter crossing.  
 
it would account for europaen tools.  
 
anyone read alan dean fosters Icerigger trilogy ?  
 
maybe thoase early folk had ice boats. and ice skates. i know the romans had ice skates, so why not earlier peoples ?  
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #15 - Jun 18th, 2012, 10:18am
 
The peoples that crossed that Bering-Strait land bridge (or ice bridge!) were of different ethnicity than the putative "European" peoples who we call the Solutrean culture.  
There are some anthropologists who think these people might have become the "Clovis" culture, because their stone tools were similar to the Clovis tools.
The Clovis were kind of the high-point of stone-age culture as far as their tool kit; they made very finely-crafted stone tools indeed.
The Solutrean items are of similar design, but not as refined.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #16 - Jun 19th, 2012, 1:59pm
 
cool - so back to ice boats Smiley  
 
Much easier to make than water boats as they don't need to float. So a much less techno savvy society could make ice craft.  
 
would make crossing a frozen atlantic ocean feasible.  
 
Could get it down to a couple of weeks easy Smiley
 
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #17 - Jun 19th, 2012, 4:51pm
 
That might not work, c_a.  When the ocean freezes it's not like a lake or river.  There are huge blocks tossed up everywhere.  The going is very difficult and probably impossible for an ice boat.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #18 - Jun 21st, 2012, 10:51pm
 
I read those a long time ago and out of order but I still enjoyed them.  They had to use sections of the ships' alloy hull to make the blades, the bone that the natives were using wouldn't stand up to the pressures that the larger ship would put on the blades.  
 
One of the reasons to go along the ice was population density.  The ice was forcing the northern peoples south after the game.  They ran into people who were already in place and there was probably competition over food sources.  So some of the groups probably followed the ice, very similar to Littles' ancestors, they probably worked with the people who were already there.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #19 - Jun 23rd, 2012, 10:18pm
 
Most early drawing of Native Americans look much more European than the guy on the U.S. Nickle.
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #20 - Aug 11th, 2012, 11:56pm
 
Quote from xxkid123 on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:35pm:
Quote from Liberty dog on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:13pm:
Quote from Mauro Fiorentini on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:24am:
John, this is not a new theory  Smiley
It all begun when some archaeologists found votive stone hoards in North America that are 100% similar to some Northern Spain-South France ones.
I mean purposely broken bifaces and stuff like this. The theory (which I agree with) is that during the last Ice Age (20-19'000 years b.C.) North America and Spain/France were linked by an ice crost, and that these early Europeans crossed it.
The biggest flawl is the reason why some people should travel across a huge glacier!
Greetings,
Mauro.



maybe they crossed to follow a food soures.....or maybe they did it just because it was there to be crossed.


"Tell me why we're doing this again?"
"I told you, it's because of that big piece of ice"
"What's that gotta do with anything?"
"Well it's there so we might as well use it...."

 
 
Man, I wish I could agree with that dialog, buy have you seen the stupidity in modern man? Quite often stemming from good curiosity, w as a species, tend to do things thai in hind sight, seems truly truly idiotic
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #21 - Aug 13th, 2012, 8:52pm
 
Like strapping humans to the tip of a bomb and shooting them into space???? Roll Eyes
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #22 - Aug 16th, 2012, 1:27pm
 
Quote from Liberty dog on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:13pm:
Quote from Mauro Fiorentini on Jun 16th, 2012, 8:24am:
John, this is not a new theory  Smiley
It all begun when some archaeologists found votive stone hoards in North America that are 100% similar to some Northern Spain-South France ones.
I mean purposely broken bifaces and stuff like this. The theory (which I agree with) is that during the last Ice Age (20-19'000 years b.C.) North America and Spain/France were linked by an ice crost, and that these early Europeans crossed it.
The biggest flawl is the reason why some people should travel across a huge glacier!
Greetings,
Mauro.



maybe they crossed to follow a food soures.....or maybe they did it just because it was there to be crossed.

 
 
  The documentary I watched on it felt that they were in fact following food sources.  The food was there, out on the edge of the ice just as it is for the Eskimos now.  They just kept following the edge and it brought them here.  The theory continues that these people were eventually wiped out by a large meteor smashing into North America, turning the climate very dry and cold for a long time.. long enough to kill these people off or drive them out.  Then the next batch came over from Siberia on the land bridge to Alaska.  I'll try to get the exact name of the documentary.  It offered a lot of good evidence for its theories.  
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #23 - Aug 20th, 2012, 3:14pm
 
Here's what I've uncovered about this subject. I've spoken to several archaeologists and professors, and they all seem to think that there is ample evidence to support a prehistoric migration from Europe to North America. All evidence from the earliest sites discovered so far over here point to European origin. They can see no reason to argue against a theory that early Europeans weren't able to move along the ice shelf and finally find landfall on the east coast of North America. These people were well versed in maritime survival...meaning fishing and hunting aquatic animals, and it wouldn't have been too hard on them to just keep moving west.  
 
Interestingly, I have discovered that the current theory of the Asiatic exploitation of North America is driven more by politics and public funding than by true scientific fact. Apparently, a certain ethnic group has discovered that if they can portray themselves as being the "true" natives who were savagely decimated at the hands of European colonists, they can now receive certain benefits and and government subsidies. This group has somehow managed to get the ear of the government over here and the situation has gotten to the point that they can say who is "native" and who isn't.  Here's and example...let's say you and I are out on a dig and discover human remains...very old human remains. Being law abiding citizens, we report this to the local authorities. It is determined that these remains are distinctly European...yet they are 20,000 years old. What do you think will happen??? Here's what will happen. The local Indian tribe will lay claim to them and confiscate them as their own. If I was to ask them to prove that those remains were actually their ancestor, I would be committing a federal crime...just for demanding proof. Because of the current laws, I would not be able to conduct any scientific study of the remains and would have to hand them over to whatever "native tribe" laid claim to them...even if I discovered them in Kentucky and the tribe that claimed them was in Alaska!!!. Do you see what's going on??? Unfortunately...every set of human remains over here older than 500 years old has been legislated as "native"...meaning Indian...and are subject to the disposal of the tribes at their whim.
 
Fortunately for science there are still several scientists that will not succumb to politics at the expense of fact and are sticking their necks out to get to the truth. I applaud these folks for their tenacity and hope one day they will be heard.
 
 
 
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Early Europeans in America
Reply #24 - Aug 20th, 2012, 3:53pm
 
Ehi, according to these politicians, you should send every skeleton here in Europe  Grin
Mini-OT: how are you, by the way? Everything's fine?
Greetings,
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