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slingbadger
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Re: Conspiracy+Questions
Reply #15 - Jun 10th, 2012, 6:33am
 
Interesting thing about Jean-Baptiste LeMarcke. Darwin actually read the book when he was a young man and it scared the hell out of him. He thought there was no way the process put down in the book could possibly happen. It was against God. ( Yes, Darwin was a religious man) Then, years later, he took his trip to the Galapagos.
 
  What I find ironic is all the people who say that Origin of Species says man is descended from apes. Yet nowhere in the book does it say or imply that.
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Bikewer
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Reply #16 - Jun 10th, 2012, 11:23am
 
This is one of the most common misconceptions about evolution.  I inhabit the Yahoo Answers site and generally confine myself to the sections on philosophy and anthropology.   Many of the questions are seriously stupid, but now and then I post something.
 
At any rate, that is still one of the most common questions posted.   "If man evolved from the apes, how come we don't see apes evolving into humans?"
And questions along similar lines.
It betrays even the most basic understanding of natural history and evolution, and I can only blame our thoroughly-miserable science-education in this country.   It's easy for the youngsters to be so ignorant when educational curricula either gives the subject short shrift or simply ignores it altogether.
 
The college I work at has to have "make-up" courses in biology and natural history available to the incoming students as so many of them are deficient in the most basic instruction in these fields.
 
This is all wound up in religion and politics, of course, rather than scientific disagreement.
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Reply #17 - Jun 10th, 2012, 6:49pm
 
I mostly agree with you Bikewer, there is fundamental misunderstanding of the other's position. Except I see it on both sides, the two "sides" actually agree on quite a lot but they don't speak the same language. Better education would help with this. I also agree that religion and politics are tied up in this but I also think some fundamental philosophical issues are in play as well. Otherwise I think you would have already seen capitulation.  
 
It's a pleasure to discuss such a charged issue in such a civil manner  Smiley  very cool Cool
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Reply #18 - Jun 10th, 2012, 10:48pm
 
Okay, maybe this isn't appropriate here, but I think it should be fine, and if not, I will remove it post-haste.
 
My question is posed directly to those, such as Dan and I believe Greenman, who are firmly against evolution.  Before I ask, I must tell a tale.  
 
During the industrial revolution in England, there was a certain type of whitish moth that would land on the light colored bark of the trees and be camouflaged.  Sometimes a black mutant would be born and it would rarely survive long because it could not blend with the light colored trees as well.  The smoke from the new machines eventually turned many of the tree trunks black.  The dark moths flourished and reproduced and the white moths, no longer able to blend, died.  Eventually the entire local population of moths was black.  This happened and was recorded over the course of just a few years.
 
My question, then, this being "micro-evolution", is why can this not happen on a grander, more global scale?
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Masiakasaurus
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Reply #19 - Jun 10th, 2012, 11:08pm
 
I got into a debate specifically about this.
 
Bystander: "I think you both are getting at the same thing...."
 
Me: "We are. He's saying that we cannot see the big changes happening even though we can see small changes, my point is that the big changes are only the small changes that we can see that have been added on top of each other. There is no difference between Micro- and Macro- evolution. To quote Ernst W. Mayr, 'transspecific evolution is nothing but an extrapolation and magnification of the events that take place within populations and species...it is misleading to make a distinction between the causes of micro- and macroevolution.' If microevolution has been observed within a species, the process of macroevolution has also been observed."
 
Other debater: "To create an analogy, [he] is saying they are one and the same, or for example, if you drive a car, you might have a car wreck and if you have a car wreck you WILL die (having a wreck is the same as dying). I'm saying that if you drive a car, you might have a car wreck and you COULD die. I'm saying that micro does not necessitate or prove that macro exists (strictly from the view of the scientific method) and also that macro is not necessarily a result of micro (because technically macro can occur by a random error in genetic transcription that wasn't created or necessitated by environment at all, and eventually results in an entirely new organism), and it neither verifies or guarantees it's occurrence. [He] is saying that if micro happens, macro is happening if you watch long enough, which isn't necessarily the case (see staph), and as a result it fails to stand up to the rigorous testing of the scientific method (as in my original post). It is not observable, repeatable, tested, and hypothetically verified evidence, just like ID. It is simply a very good guess based on what we consider the fruits of natural selection and evolution as a process."

 
Somehow 2 different ideas entered the public mind, one that macroevolution and microevolution are different processes and the other that macroevolution has never been witnessed. Evolution advocates say that both of these are false, opponents of evolution use them as the basis for many arguments.
 
I think a more apt analogy to me would be that "If tectonic fault lines occur, there will be earth quakes." Microevolution is the very small change that we can measure yearly at a fault line. Macroevolution is the total amount of movement that we measured between the last earthquake and the current earthquake. And an earthquake is speciation.
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« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2012, 4:17pm by Masiakasaurus »  
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Dan
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Reply #20 - Jun 11th, 2012, 8:35am
 
TC, We actually had that example in my Christian science textbook. I thought it was really obvious to answer, I didn't think anyone would believe it. I guess people do.
 
Say you have 500 black butterflies and 500 white butterflies in a white background with several birds. Which do you think the birds will eat, the black ones. And if the background was black they would eat the white butterflys.  
 
 Does this mean that the black or white butterfliess changed into another kind of butterfly to avoid being eaten? No. You have a simple subtraction problem, and whichever ones the birds don't eat survive. Will these butterflies become stronger and change into fish (or whattever comes next in the evolutionary order)? No. Even if they did change, all that has been proven is a butterfly being turned into... a butterfly. Which would be fine if were a a planet with only butterflies, but we have millions of species of different animals and insects which don't resemble butterflies.
 
Micro evolution cannot happen on a larger scale, simply becuase it's impossible. If you breeded dogs for millions of years, do you know what you would have? Lots of Dogs. You wouldn't have a fish or a monkey or a human, you would have a dog.
 
   Keep in mind all of the above was from a pretty secular standpoint. Now, if an animal does have the ability to adapt to it's enviorment, I can assume that it's not becuase it evolved over millions of years. It's becuse an Omnipotent Omnicient God made the animals to be that way. And if there is this God who created animals, he created people too. And then there's a whole lot of stuff that comes next.
 
Hopefully that answers your question.
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Masiakasaurus
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Reply #21 - Jun 11th, 2012, 9:23am
 
Quote from Dan on Jun 11th, 2012, 8:35am:
Will these butterflies become stronger and change into fish (or whattever comes next in the evolutionary order)? If you breeded dogs for millions of years, do you know what you would have? Lots of Dogs. You wouldn't have a fish or a monkey or a human, you would have a dog.

Evolution doesn't say that either of those will happen.
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Reply #22 - Jun 11th, 2012, 10:38am
 
However, if you breed foxes for domesticability for several hundreds of generations (a few seconds on the scale of evolution) you get foxes that are not only remarkably dog-like in behavior, but also begin to look much less like their wild cousins and become spotted, longer furred, and aquire other traits that are ....Doglike.
The Russians have done exactly this in an experimental facility that was started up some 50 years ago.
 
We know from genetic study that modern dogs, all of 'em, are very closely related to wolves.  So closely that they can interbreed; Alaskan and Canadian sled dogs are frequently mated by male wolves, and have viable offspring.
 
It's really difficult to grasp the time scales involved in natural selection.   We do this at an accellerated rate with selective breeding.  All contemporary domestic animals are the result of this.   The incredible varieties of "fancy" pigeons", the vastly-different breeds of dogs, cattle, sheep, etc.
All of these remain the same species, of course, but thats because we don't isololate the populations.  Most domestic critters are constantly being tampered with along the lines of infusions of new genetic material.
 
In speciation, a population is normally isolated and then adapts further to it's unique environment without input from the primary population group.   Changes accumulate, and become great enough so that the ability to breed with the original population is lost.
This can take a very long time with most species; longer than human history.   Nature has had billions of years to work with.  
The wildly differing forms of the dinosaurs occurred over almost 200 million years.   We humans, having been around for a mere 150,000 or so, are a mere blip in natural history.
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Reply #23 - Jun 11th, 2012, 11:31am
 
Bikewer, the Russian thingy wasn't so much a scientfic experiment as an attempt to get a more-docile fox in a facility where foxes were raised for their pelts. Breeding less-aggressive foxes led to physiological changes making the foxes more doglike. The conclusion was that the behavoral traits were linked on the foxes' chromosomes to the doggy appearance traits. Docility would be a non-survival trait in the wild so the change would be really unlikely to take place naturally.
 
A different example of selection is the Heike crabs in Shimonoseki Bay, which have a marking on the back resembling a skull and crossbones. The locals thought they were the spirits of the Taira warriors who died in a sea battle there and refused to eat them, giving them a breeding advantage over their unmarked cousins.
 
Selection only works if the genetic material is already there. For something really new it takes mutation.  
 
Regarding Lamarck, another topic, the example we were given back in the Medieval period when I was in high school was that he tried to breed tailless rats by cutting off the tails of rats and breeding them. Simply making changes to the body doesn't affect the genetic material. Not sure how what Masi presents relates to what I was taught; sure sounds different.
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Reply #24 - Jun 11th, 2012, 12:17pm
 
Quote from Dan on Jun 11th, 2012, 8:35am:

Micro evolution cannot happen on a larger scale, simply becuase it's impossible.

 
Why not? Why can't it be extended  in very small episodes indefinitely.  Why can't the black moths with mutated fuzzy antennae gain an advantage over the non fuzzy antennae, making all the moths black with fuzzy antennae?  And then the ones that happen to have mutated laser-beam eyes win out over those that don't and then we have moths that are black, with fuzzy antennae, and laser-beam eyes; a very different creature than what we started with.  Things evolve (in the evolutionary short term) into things similar to themselves.  Fish to fish, birds to birds; not fish to birds.  The thing is over billions of years, with enough microscopic changes things at either end (i.e. fish at the start and bird at the end) do end up very different, but each step on the path to get there is very similar to the one before it.
 
Also don't tell me "it's impossible", I want reasoning, not rhetoric.  Belief in evolution does not betray your belief in God.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the animals stayed the same throughout the timeline.  God and evolution are compatible.  I personally think it would be even more amazing if God allowed or assisted his  beasties to evolve rather than keeping them static in a changing world.  
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Reply #25 - Jun 11th, 2012, 2:40pm
 
Masi, I was using an anology about the interspecies changability.
 
As hurlinthom said, You just have foxes with doglike behavior. Making a fox into a more dommestic fox is not very impressive nor is it proof of evolution.  
 
TC, micro evolution can happen in small episodes indeffinitely, but you won't get any new kinds of animals. And your laser beam Butterflies will still always be butterflies.  
 
The Bible says animals will always produce after their own kind which means dogs will always be dogs and fish will always be fish.
 
Christianity and evolution are not compatable. From a surface view sure, God could have created matter and then had evolution take place, but even after minor study it is evident that God and Jesus Christ are quite emphatic that the earth was Created in exactly 6 days.  
   Exodus 20:11 says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."  This Chapter may sound familiar because it's the same chapter with the Ten Commandments, pretty important stuff.  This is God talking directly to the Isrealites btw.
 
 
Then Jesus says in Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
Not that they evoloved over time from fish but that they were made.  
 
 David also recongnized that he was Created In Psalm 139:14  "I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
 
So only if the Ten Commandments are just made up and God lied, and David was a liar, and Jesus was a liar, Then Christianity would kinda agree with evolution/old earth theories.
 
Otherwise, I'd say the two aren't very compatable.
 
I think God designing us and such an amazing planet is pretty spectacular (When you see Him, you'll have to reprimand the God who sent his Son to be Crucified for your sins, that it would have been cooler if he used evolution instead).  Even more awesome is his love for us despite our drastic short comings.
 
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Reply #26 - Jun 11th, 2012, 2:51pm
 
When the evidence for evolution became overwhelming, creationists were forced to retrench slightly.  Instead of simply denying that it occured at all, they came up with the terms "micro evolution" and "macro evolution".   This all goes back to Genesis and the notion of "kinds" which figures strongly in creationist thinking.
It was, in light of the overwhelming evidence, perhaps OK that the original "kinds" of organisms could, grudgingly, change somewhat... As in Darwin's finches.   Still recognizeably finches, but different species.  
They decided they could live with that.
However, the notion that gross changes could take place was too much.  That a wolf-like land-dwelling carnivore could, over millions of years, morph into seagoing cetateans... Well, that could never happen.
 
Even though we can trace the lineage of contemporary whales quite nicely, and even though contemporary whales bear in their bodies still the vestigial hip and femur structures of their "wolfie" ancestors....
Likewise pythons, which in several species have vestigial hips and upper leg-bones.
 
Creationists want to be shown "transitional" fossils, fossils that would show some major change taking place.  Of course, the record is full of transitional fossils; essentially all organisms are transitional but fossils are a snapshot rather than a movie.
Still, we have feathered dinosaurs, and partially-winged dinosaurs, and toothy birds, and fish with nascent legs and lungs, and hundreds of more examples.  Creationists deny all these.  
They apparently want to see some sort of fossilized chimera, and that's not going to happen.    
Chimeras occur, but such massive mutations are invariably fatal.  We call them "birth defects" today.
 
Dan, perhaps your particular brand of Christianity finds evolution incompatible, but this is not the case with Christianity in general.
I and others have pointed out repeatedly that many of the 2000+ Christian sects find no incompatibility whatever.  The Catholics accepted it long ago.  I have pointed out that even more-progressive Evangelical sects have accepted what the evidence shows.  
Evangelicals like the Francis Collins I mentioned earlier have said flatly that they see evolution is "how God did it", and see Genesis as the creation myth it is.
 
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Reply #27 - Jun 11th, 2012, 3:31pm
 
We don't deny cool animals, in fact there are a lot today. It just means there was a cool God behind all of it.
 
In many cases Catholosicm in Christianity aren't even compatable but that's another story.
 
The main (and pretty much only) foundation for being a true Christian is that you have placed your Faith and Trust in Jesus (and the indwelling of the Spirit, but the first is what we'll focus on now). As we can agree, it's kind of hard to trust someone who would have blantantly lied as Mark 10:6, says if evolution is true. And if he's supposed to be the perfect sactifce, then he couldn't have lied. And if hw was lying about how His Father created the earth than he couldn't have been His Son because he wouldn't be perfect, and you would think he might have folded at the threat of brutal Crucification. And then the whole foundation of Evolutionist christianity comes tumbling down.  
 
 But if He is who He says He is and is as the Bible says, and he did go through the brutal torture of Crucification, then things are pretty different. And anyone can PM if you'd like to learn more. That's what I'm really here for.
 
 
  I'm pretty sure Christians always knew about small changes, hence why you and I probably don't look exactly alike. But, did both of us come from rocks (If so, where did the rocks come from?). I highly doubt it.
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Reply #28 - Jun 11th, 2012, 4:16pm
 
Quote from Dan on Jun 11th, 2012, 3:31pm:
I'm pretty sure Christians always knew about small changes, hence why you and I probably don't look exactly alike. But, did both of us come from rocks (If so, where did the rocks come from?). I highly doubt it.

And that is something that evolution likewise doesn't cover.
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Reply #29 - Jun 11th, 2012, 4:29pm
 
Quote from Dan on Jun 11th, 2012, 8:35am:
whichever ones the birds don't eat survive. Will these butterflies become stronger and change into fish (or whattever comes next in the evolutionary order)? No. Even if they did change, all that has been proven is a butterfly being turned into... a butterfly. Which would be fine if were a a planet with only butterflies, but we have millions of species of different animals and insects which don't resemble butterflies.

 
We simply can not continue this further until we sort out this idea you have of evolution, Dan. What would you do if I told you Jesus died, not for our sins, but for his own "let's see if I can come back to life after behind dead!". I'd be dead wrong, both by the information in the bible, and by simply throwing out hypotheses without evidence.  
 
Now, we can both see that. So realize that when you propose that evolution means cats will turn into bats, you're , by almost all accounts, wrong. This is a complete misunderstanding of evolution. There is no specific order that things evolve. No hierarchy of pre-destined creatures, like you seem to think.  It's just genetic change in a species, being effected by different factors over time. You need to see that, at the very least, if you want to actually follow certain phrases in your religion's sacred book. ""Then you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32 "
 
   Quote from Dan on Jun 11th, 2012, 8:35am:
Now, if an animal does have the ability to adapt to it's enviorment, I can assume that it's not becuase it evolved over millions of years. It's becuse an Omnipotent Omnicient God made the animals to be that way. And if there is this God who created animals, he created people too. And then there's a whole lot of stuff that comes next.

 
You can not assume that. You can presume that they adapt for the simple fact that animals tend to avoid suicide, as we observe them. They pass on genetic material, and that can help or harm their offspring. The better suited to their environment go on. Not due to a god. Though it is possible, I consider it very improbable. In addition, why must the god create humans if they created animals?  Maybe there are two gods, one for humans, one for animals. I feel that your reasoning all comes from Christianity, giving to the whole "one god, all powerful, etc" characteristics. That's a pity. You're limiting yourself to the possibilities, the what-if scenarios.  Branch out a tad, maybe it's all a computer simulation. Hey, you never know.
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