I would like to see the facts that lead several of you to state that Martin was a thug.  From what I understand he did no worse that what my friends and I (and probably most of you) did when we were teens.  I know of VERY few kids his age who are perfect angels.  I've read or heard nothing to lead me to believe that he was a violent criminal.

That's overly harsh Dan. It's a fair question. Partly because of the biased media coverage those who see the unfair coverage go too far in the other direction painting Treyvon as a thug and Zimmerman as an angel. I honestly believe they both made honest mistakes. but in the real world sometimes there's a price for an honest mistake. I think most males Trayvon's age would have behaved similarly, been confrontational instead of willing to run. Which I think is RM's point. We're all idiots at 17. All of us. Even the smart mature ones will look back in as little as 6 years and go "I was so young, such an idiot" and we'll all make mistakes. That's why to me it's a tragedy. Both made understandable mistakes, and somebody paid the ultimate price for it. I think that's the literary definition of tragedy  

well I might have come across harsher than I intended as well    
 
It's not that you're wrong as much as it is that there's something you're not seeing in the situation Dan. I think we're all agreed about the biased nature of the reporting. But the trite "you're older you should know better" applies a little bit in this situation. Once the fight is underway smashing someone's head into the concrete is an understandable tactic. But the circumstances that led to the fight. That's where they both made mistakes, and where Trayvon's age handicap (the stupidity that comes with being 17) counted against him. LIke I said. Most 17 year olds, the vast majority, wouldn't have de-escalated or run away. And it is tragic that a normative mistake cost him his life.

Quote from perpetualstudent on May 4^th, 2012, 8:45am:

 
I mostly agree, however there is a severe asymmetry here. One guy is dead the other isn't. He is dead because of a situation created by the man carrying the gun.

Quote from Dan on May 4^th, 2012, 8:24am:

   Dan, you're assuming too much here.  You don't know who attacked who.  If I was a kid fighting for my life against an armed grown man, certainly knocking his head into the pavement would be an option.  So would kicking, biting, and eye gouging.  I'm sure that you would do the same.  What I'm asking for is something in Trayvon Martin's history to indicate that he was a "thug."  Somehow I have the feeling that I'll be waiting for a very long time.  Some of your attitudes deeply disappoint me.  
   Zimmerman didn't have any authority to approach Martin.  He was told by the police dispatcher to back off and wait for back up.  He created this situation by at best his poor judgement.  An unarmed teen is shot dead in the street through the heart.  These are the facts. "Well, he wore a hoody and liked gangsta rap, so he was a thug and it's OK."  No one wants to be considered a racist these days.  I think some of you need to look deep into your own hearts.  
  

I'll have to check that, Pikaru.  I got that second hand, from my wife, to be honest.  I just checked Snopes and they didn't have much to say about it at all.  All I can find is that Martin was shot in the chest.  There's nothing more specific than that that I can find on the web so far.  
Until I know better I'll remove that part of my statements.

 The supposed wittiness's accounts conflict greatly.  As far as the fight goes it's a blur.  No one knows for sure what happened when Zimmerman confronted Martin.  Hopefully they'll be able to hash that part of it out in court.

No offense taken, Pikaru.  We need to be accurate.  I took my wife's word for it.  She said she'd heard it on the news and that she was certain.  That's really not good enough though.  I should have checked myself before accepting it.  I can find nothing about it other than that Martin was shot in the chest.  It doesn't say from what angle.  I'll ask her about her source when she gets home from work.