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Survival Atlatl Darts (Read 2229 times)
Atlatlista
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #60 - May 4th, 2012, 3:49am
 
Quote from Bill Skinner on May 3rd, 2012, 7:53pm:
Here's the penetration results of a heavy dart vs a light dart.  The light dart is 5 feet 11 inches, (1.8m) and 3/8 inch across, (1cm).  The heavy dart is 7 feet 5 inches, (2.3m) and 3/4 of an inch thick (2cm).  Both have two primary wing feathers from a Canada goose about 6 inches long (15cm).  I wasn't able to weigh them but the heavy dart is a LOT heavier.  Neither had a point, I just cut the end at a roughly 60 degree angle.  I threw with the same atlatl, which is made from the base end of the larger piece, it is 26 inches (66cm) long.  I threw at 10 meters, measured.  I threw each dart 20 times, I actually threw more but I didn't add in the results of the poor throws.  I threw at the end of a large, round hay bale.  

The light dart, on average, penetrated 6 to 8 inches (20cm).  The heavy dart penetrated 13 to 15 inches (38cm).  I didn't throw for distance, I suspect that the lighter dart will go a lot further.  At the end of the test, it was a lot easier to throw the lighter dart, I had to work to throw the heavier.  

If the penetration in hay were exactly equal to penetration in flesh, the lighter dart would work, barely, for hunting large game.  It would penetrate deep enough to pucture a lung of a white tail deer, which would eventually kill it.  But that deer would run a long way and that increases the chances of not finding it before it spoils or something like a bear or wolves ate it.  I really wouldn't want to try anything larger like an elk or moose and bear, black or brown, are out, unless they were trying to eat me.  The lighter dart would work fine for small game up to turkeys and geese.  

 
Very interesting stuff, Bill.  I'm going to have to definitely do my own experiments with this.  One question - how far will an arrow fired from a 40 pound bow penetrate in the same material?  My thought is that the light dart is going to out-penetrate an arrow, ceteris paribus, but not a heavier dart.  Also interesting was that there is a diminishing return on the darts in your data.  It's probably not accurate enough to draw too many conclusions, but you have a dart that is more than twice as heavy achieving a penetration of less than twice as much.  So, I wonder if there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where you get the most bang for your buck - excellent penetration for game animals, less wear and tear on your joints and muscles, as well as good range.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #61 - May 4th, 2012, 10:19pm
 
As a matter of fact, I shot some carbon arrows at the same bale from a 38 pound (about 17kg) at 28 inches (71cm).  I got 20 to 22 ( 56cm) inches of penetration.  My wooden darts are lighter than the heavy cane dart, I should have thrown one of them and gotten some data.  I think that there is an optimum weight but it has to be paired to what you are hunting.  The smaller dart would have been fine for small game and the heavy would have been what I wanted for something elk, moose or bear.  Also, you tend to get better penetration in flesh with a point that cuts its way through than a round shaft.  Or, that same bow and arrow with a broadhead will shoot completely through the ribcage, both lungs and the off ribcage and land about ten meters from a deer.
 
I took the fletching off the darts and put them back on the barn roof to dry some more, in a week or so, I will re test them and I will also throw my wooden dart, I really need some way to weigh them and keep track of the weight.
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Atlatlista
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #62 - May 4th, 2012, 10:46pm
 
Wow, that's very surprising for the arrow.  This is going to be great fodder for some of my laboratory work in Fall when things start back up again.  I plan to look at wound channel differences between atlatl darts and arrows to assess lethality by shooting arrows and darts from a calibrated crossbow into ballistics gelatin. I may also do some high-speed camera work to really get a sense of the forces at play. So, I'll definitely utilize different sized darts to see if that has an impact as well.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #63 - May 5th, 2012, 12:43pm
 
Mythbusters did pretty much the same thing, the penetration in geletain was pretty much the same.  Tissue is very elastic, the point with the cutting edge tends to cut veins, arteries, and organs, the round sharp point tends to shove them aside unless the very tip of the point hits them.  And what kills is blood loss, so the point with sharp edges usually kills quicker.  That is balanced by the ease of manufacture of the fire hardened round point.  
 
 
In my opinion, when the first people discovered rivercane, they must have thought they were in heaven, without having to die to get there.  Easy to straighten, the edges of the point are sharp so you don't have to add a stone point, and it is really tough and plentiful.
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Atlatlista
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #64 - May 5th, 2012, 1:44pm
 
Quote from Bill Skinner on May 5th, 2012, 12:43pm:
Mythbusters did pretty much the same thing, the penetration in geletain was pretty much the same.  Tissue is very elastic, the point with the cutting edge tends to cut veins, arteries, and organs, the round sharp point tends to shove them aside unless the very tip of the point hits them.  And what kills is blood loss, so the point with sharp edges usually kills quicker.  That is balanced by the ease of manufacture of the fire hardened round point.  


In my opinion, when the first people discovered rivercane, they must have thought they were in heaven, without having to die to get there.  Easy to straighten, the edges of the point are sharp so you don't have to add a stone point, and it is really tough and plentiful.

 
What mythbusters did was actually to test the penetration of tipless arrows vs stone points.  Their conclusions were really not very valid.  My lab issued a rebuttal paper on the topic recently, as mythbusters did theirs in collaboration with another anthropologist.
 
I agree about rivercane.  I just wish it grew in big stands here like it used to.  It's really fading away fast.
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