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Survival Atlatl Darts (Read 2353 times)
Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #30 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 8:29pm
 
Something like a very flat biface? We have small ones here but only since the Copper Age (5000 years bp), and they're classified as "spear heads" as well as "daggers". Once metal daggers outmatch stone ones in quantity, quality and, most important, as status symbols, we find more specyfic dagger blades made of flint in the poorest graves, an attempt to replicate bronze ones.
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #31 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:02pm
 
Bill Skinner wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 8:18pm:
Smooth throw, breaking the wrist but not jerky.  Your wrist must roll over or you don't use the length of the atlatl to advantage.  I have seen quite a few people that add an extra pop or flick at the end of the throw.  They seem to be quite accurate, I just cause the dart to porpoise wildly.

As far as the skinny dart compared to an arrow, the arrow is going a lot faster.  If you look at Daltons, at the end of the last Ice Age when they were first used, they were around an inch+ wide at the base.  They were used to hunt large animals. At the end of the Archiac, when small game was the norm with the occasional larger animal, the points had shrunk to around 3/8ths of an inch wide.  So, the skinny dart will work but not as well as the larger dart for large game and you have to be hunting in a group.  And also, Daltons got serrated or barbed so they would leave a better blood trail and make the animal easier to find.

For those of you who are trying to follow this, A Dalton is a lanceolet point that evolved from the points the Paleo peoples were using to hunt the mega fauna.  A lot of people say the point was one of the first to be made specifically to go on the end of a dart.  There were also knife forms so what a certain point or blade was used for is open to argument.


I'm not sure dart point size equates at all to dart shaft size without looking at some wear pattern evidence.  You can put a very wide point on a narrow shaft.  In fact, if the shaft is relatively rigid, this is ideal as it creates a large wound channel and minimizes shaft drag in the animal.

Arrows are going a lot faster than atlatl darts, no question about it, but momentum = mass x velocity.  So, if the atlatl dart, being 3 times as long as the arrow is 3 times as massive (given identical diameter), the arrow would have to be going 3 times faster than the atlatl dart to maintain higher momentum.  I'm not sure that it is.  I think it's more likely that what you see is a roughly equivalent momentum for both the atlatl dart and the arrow (though I will note my own laboratory force plate measurements register consistently higher forces with atlatl darts than with a 50 pound bow, and the bows from ethnographic samples are usually lower poundage than that - 30 to 40 or even lower).  If you have a roughly equivalent momentum, the atlatl dart will have loads more penetration, because animal flesh obeys the laws of fluid dynamics which state that the force of drag is equal to 1/2 x fluid density x velocity squared x drag coefficient x reference area.  If you're shooting a dart with the same diameter and same material as the arrow, as we assumed above, three times more massive, but three times slower, the arrow will experience nine times the drag forces that the dart experiences.  So the dart will have much better penetrating power.

So why not use a thin dart?  An arrow can kill an elephant.  Why can't a thin atlatl dart accomplish the same thing?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #32 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:37pm
 
Alina (and whoever else is interested) do you know of these Paleolithic mammal bones that shows evidences of weapon impact?
They've been found in England, and others in Italy; I could look for further information if you're interested.
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #33 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:00pm
 
Certainly there are some with signs of weapon impact.  We've even found embedded points in the bones of animals.  Why do you ask?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #34 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:20pm
 
Because of your question: Quote:
An arrow can kill an elephant.  Why can't a thin atlatl dart accomplish the same thing?
  Wink
It was rethorical, I suppose, but it could be interesting to collect and share these evidences, we could talk about this matter for months!
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #35 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:29pm
 
A wide point on a thin shaft is usually not very secure.  That's why side notches were invented and they also got a lot narrower as time went on.  Also, the lashings and that extra glue create drag which limits penetration.  And penetration is what kills the animal.

On Monday, I will make a couple of darts, one about 3/8ths inch at the base and one around one inch and I will throw them at a hay bale and measure the penetration.  How long are your skinny darts?  I will try to make them the same length, I will do a Southeastern Two Feather fletch on both.  I will use the same atlatl to throw them.  These will be green, so they will be heavier than the ones you are throwing.  I will also try to find something to weigh them.  I will try to use the same age cane so the walls are about the same thickness. 

Mauro, there are lots of mega fauna bones that show evidence of stone and bone projectile points.  In the Great Plains area, there are lots, mostly bison, that date from the Paleo Period (13500BCE) to historic that have stone, bone and metal points in them.  I think every bar in Texas has a bison skull or leg bone with the remenants of a stone point in it.
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Atlatlista
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #36 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:05pm
 
My skinny darts are usually hovering right around the six foot mark.  I'll be interested to see your results for sure.  I'm not convinced that your bigger darts won't have more penetration, but I wonder if the trade-off for accuracy is worth it.  I was teaching a class today, throwing both thicker, heavier darts and skinnier ones, and we were consistently nailing the target with the skinnier ones at 10-15 yards, and sending the thicker darts flying over the target because of pronounced tailkick and porpoising in the air.  It's a bit late to measure my dart diameters, but if I had to guess I'd say darts between 3/8 and 1/2 inch made of cane or bamboo were flying better than cane or bamboo darts over 1/2 of an inch.  The one that was closer to 1 inch at the base was the hardest by far to throw accurately, though it was very robust.  As far as penetrating power, I'd actually rank it second to one of my 3/8 inch darts which had a flatter trajectory and seemed to cut through the air faster.
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Morphy
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #37 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:27pm
 
Interesting thread guys. Really makes me want to make one for myself. I wonder if it would be possible to tweak the system and use shorter darts to good effect? I know practically nothing about atlatls so this might be a dumb suggestion. I have no clue.  Wink
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #38 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 7:06am
 
Yeaaah another atlatlist!  Grin
Go for it!!
Mauro.
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #39 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 9:29am
 
Morphy wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Interesting thread guys. Really makes me want to make one for myself. I wonder if it would be possible to tweak the system and use shorter darts to good effect? I know practically nothing about atlatls so this might be a dumb suggestion. I have no clue.  Wink


I don't like short darts, and by short, I mean anything under 4 and a half feet.  5 feet is good, four and a half feet is pushing it, four feet and under is too small in my opinion.  The shorter something is, the heavier its spine becomes for a given diameter.  So even a skinny 4ft dart has the stiff spine of a thick 6 or 7 foot dart.  This gives it all the accuracy problems but none of the stopping power.  It just seems like a bad trade-off for me.
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #40 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 4:28pm
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 7:06am:
Yeaaah another atlatlist!  Grin
Go for it!!
Mauro.


Hehe Think I might... seems interesting.  Cheesy

@Atlatlista- Ok... I guess If I end up giving this a shot I'll go with the longer darts. Thanks  Smiley
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #41 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:29pm
 
In theory, if they weigh the same, a smaller dart will penetrate better as the the smaller shaft has less surface area so less drag as it goes in.

Morphy, just make one and try it.  They're like slings, you make one, throw with it, figure out how to make a better one, repeat.  After a while, you'll be making string out of grass, wearing brain tanned hides, sleeping in piles of leaves and eating all sorts of strange things.
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #42 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:16pm
 
Bill Skinner wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:29pm:
In theory, if they weigh the same, a smaller dart will penetrate better as the the smaller shaft has less surface area so less drag as it goes in.

Morphy, just make one and try it.  They're like slings, you make one, throw with it, figure out how to make a better one, repeat.  After a while, you'll be making string out of grass, wearing brain tanned hides, sleeping in piles of leaves and eating all sorts of strange things.


Ahhh don't tempt me!!  Grin (People already think I'm weird enough. Somehow I don't think a buckskin loin cloth is going to help my image.)

Even so, I may have no choice. We are about to move to a little town in the foothills. Field and forest right next to our house and river running through it. Mountains right next to us.... Things are about to get real interesting. Atlatls will be high on my list of things to try. ...
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #43 - Apr 30th, 2012 at 4:43am
 
Morphy, my only issue with the whole atlatl thing is neighbours thinking I`m weird enough already.  Running around with 6 - 7 feet spears and a ... club might tip the balanse, in a less than fortunate direction.  Exept from that, as a newbie atlatlist I`l strongly recomend trying it.  

I have even noticed a huge gardening store selling 210 centimeterlong, apprx finger thin bamboo poles.  I`ll check that out sometime.
timann
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Morphy
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Re: Survival Atlatl Darts
Reply #44 - Apr 30th, 2012 at 3:24pm
 
Yep! Exactly Timann. But I think it may be worth the weird...um...weirder looks I will get by trying it out.  Smiley Let us know how those poles work out. I might have to check some gardening stores as well.
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