Slinging.org Forum - David vs Goliath cartoon version

Pikåru

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #15 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 11:40am

Quote from Dan on Apr 17^th, 2012, 8:42am:

Quote from Pikaru on Apr 16^th, 2012, 4:41pm:

David vs Goliath: As much of a myth as water being turned to wine, a man living for days inside of a fish, city walls crumbling under the sound of trumpets, woman created from a man's rib, take your pick.
Belief in something is not truth. That is called faith. Just because you believe something through your faith doesn't make it true. It may be truth for you but by definition it is not truth in and of itself.
I'd sooner believe that a shepard defeated a soldier with a sling before I'd believe that two of every animal in the entire world was loaded onto a boat to survive a 40 day world wide catastrophic flood. C'mon.
As far as the video clip, the slinging from mid-air and summersaulting up and over the cliff's edge was awesome.

You are missing the key factor here, which is an omnipotent God.

Please don't get me wrong as I don't have a problem with any person's faith. Your 'key factor' is the point. This is all contingent upon your belief in a god and belief in the bible as the word of that god. My point is what bible, the pre or post refermation bible? What about all of the religious scripts written that were omitted from the 'first' bible because they were viewed as non-canonical or gnostic writings? Who decided what stayed and what went and for what reasons? Because they were divinely guided by god? Another act of faith and still, what version of the bible? Faith not truth.

Some events noted in the bible are supported by historians of the time and/or other kinds of tangible evidence and are true. Other items in the bible such as loving your neighbor as yourself and parables are other kinds of truth but outside of that, bible as truth is an act of faith, nothing more. Commendable but not compelling enough to argue the bible as truth in its entirety. "True Christianity"? How many people have lost everything because of that belief?

Two of every animal or "kind" of animal is irrelevant to something that is also a myth. Of course there are evidences of water in different places around the world that are now far from water. There are marine fossils very close to where I grew up in central Colorado. The fossils are at 13,000 fett in elevation. It's not evidence of Noah's flood, it's evidence of life on this earth that is millions of years old, of a planet that has undergone vast changes over millions of years. Not that Noah and his sons built a boat and floated around for 40 days then repopulated the world in a few thousand years. Faith, not truth. Truth for you because of your faith but not truth by definition.

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Dan

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #16 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 12:55pm

Were you there "millions of years ago" when colorado was covered in water? I didn't think so. My point is you underestimate how much of your knowledge is also taken on by faith, and although I could bash your faith in many things, I will not as this is not my goal and generaly not very productive anyway. I will continue defending my faith untill the day I die, right now I believe the words of C.S. Lewis (who used to be an athiest btw) are quite appropriate reguarding Chritsitainity.
From Mere Christianity:
"In other words, I believe it on His authority. Do not be scared by the word authority. Believing things
on authority only means believing them because you have been told them by someone you think
trustworthy. Ninety-nine per cent of the things you believe are believed on authority. I believe there is
such a place as New York. I have not seen it myself. I could not prove by abstract reasoning that there
must be such a place. I believe it because reliable people have told me so. The ordinary man believes
in the Solar System, atoms, evolution, and the circulation of the blood on authority—because the
scientists say so.
Every historical statement in the world is believed on authority. None of us has seen the Norman
Conquest or the defeat of the Armada. None of us could prove them by pure logic as you prove a
thing in mathematics. We believe them simply because people who did see them have left writings
that tell us about them: in fact, on authority. A man who jibbed at authority in other things as some
people do in religion would have to be content to know nothing all his life."

And also: "There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has
become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing: it will be the time when we
discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this
moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not
last for ever. We must take it or leave it."

These are from Chaptrer 5 of book 2..
I highly suggest you read Mere Christianity, The first half is even written from a secular standpoint. Here is a PDF. http://usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf

Trust me on this, for a man like yourself, it will be impossible for me to proove Christiainity to you, you must find it yourself and I can only guide you along the way.

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1 Samuel 14:7

"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8

SALVATION: By Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.

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Pikåru

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #17 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 1:16pm

Quote from Dan on Apr 17^th, 2012, 12:55pm:

Trust me on this, for a man like yourself, it will be impossible for me to proove Christiainity to you, you must find it yourself and I can only guide you along the way. [/b]

Oh Daniel-san, I think you presume too much for someone so young. There's only two people I trust, one of them's me, and the other's not you.

Thomas Paine said it well:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."

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I sling. Therefore I am.
Tano' Hu I Islan Guahan.
http://itanohu.blogspot.com

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Atlatlista Ex Member	Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version Reply #18 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 1:25pm To conflate scientific authority with religious authority is to commit a huge logical error. Scientific authority comes from repeated, reproduceable tests of hypotheses, from careful examination of the natural world, from open debate and examination. Religious authority is derived from none of these things.
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Dan

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #19 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 1:44pm

Pikaru, everything I can say has pretty been said, read Mere Christianity.

C.S. Lewis says there are there only 2 races, relegions, beliefs, etc. The Once born and the Twice born, there is nothing else outside of this, period.

Atlatlista, I really like science, more so than most other subjects, my Dad is a chemical engineer and evidently he likes science as well. True science which has been tested as you said, I very much enjoy. And believe it or not, true science actually confirms the account of the Bible (young earth, catastrophic flood, etc. It cannot explain miracles but that's really what makes them miraculous). However much of what is being taught by what many would believe to be reliable authorities is -sad to say- not true science and is mearly poor hypothesies with no actual backing. Which incendently without a Divine Creator allows man to fufill his own selfish deisres. I've been over this before, nothings about belief has realy changed in the past couple thousand years as is evident by 1 Peter 3.

Just as I said with Pikaru, I cannot prove Christianity to you by just disproving what you believe now, you must find it on your own. Mere Christianity is a good place to start for anyone, you can use the link in the previous post, I'm just a messanger, it's your decision whether or not to accept and pursue the message.

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1 Samuel 14:7

"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8

SALVATION: By Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.

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Morphy Interfector Viris Spurii Checkmate Posts: 2432	Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version Reply #20 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:00pm So far we have established 1. That David killed the Witch-King, Lord of the Nazgul and 2. That mankind has yet to come to a common consensus on religion. The first point, shocking. The second, not so much.
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Pikåru

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #21 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:08pm

Quote from Morphy on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:00pm:

So far we have established 1. That David killed the Witch-King, Lord of the Nazgul and 2. That mankind has yet to come to a common consensus on religion.

The first point, shocking. The second, not so much.

I'm still trying to helicopter my way down the street to grab some lunch. No luck so far but as soon as I do, I will post the video.

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Tano' Hu I Islan Guahan.
http://itanohu.blogspot.com

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Morphy

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #22 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:16pm

Quote from Pikaru on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:08pm:

Quote from Morphy on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:00pm:

So far we have established 1. That David killed the Witch-King, Lord of the Nazgul and 2. That mankind has yet to come to a common consensus on religion.

The first point, shocking. The second, not so much.

I'm still trying to helicopter my way down the street to grab some lunch. No luck so far but as soon as I do, I will post the video.

Actually any video of such an attempt would be much appreciated, successful or not. Grin

If you wear a cape while doing it, lunch is on me. Wink

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"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..."

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perpetualstudent

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #23 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:22pm

Quote from Atlatlista on Apr 17^th, 2012, 1:25pm:

To conflate scientific authority with religious authority is to commit a huge logical error. Scientific authority comes from repeated, reproduceable tests of hypotheses, from careful examination of the natural world, from open debate and examination. Religious authority is derived from none of these things.

Given my own...indecision on religious matters at the moment I'm hesitant to step into the free for all. But Dan has not committed a logical fallacy.

What is mainly being discussed is not science, but scientifically framed historical analysis. Science, as we use the term, does not properly bound itself. It is one thing to say "Look how this population of protazoa have become more mobile as we've altered their environment over their last few hundred generations". That is science, and naming that as evolution is fine. It is within the bounds of science. It is measurement and discernment of an ongoing process. We have data of a type that we chose to collect, using the experimental process.

It is another thing to examine fossils and bedrock and say that scientifically you can prove what was millions of years ago. You cannot scientifically prove that. What you are doing is deducing from a scientific principle and current data, and inferring from that. It is not science. It is scientifically framed history.

Scientists try to get around this. I've had one professor who claimed history as a science in order to achieve logical consistency. I've had another who claimed that what mattered for science was that it was self correcting in response to evidence. Both of these from very intelligent men whom I respect, but who commit a huge logical error here. Regardless both step away reproducable testable hypotheses. That definition is not held by scientists themselves when they wish to step outside their bounds and enter into historical analysis.

Please note that I am not saying that we shouldn't do scientifically framed history. We should. But we should never conflate history and science. Dan is right in that respect. When we discuss paleontology we are discussing history. And history requires faith in something and insecurity in our answers. Science must be properly bound.

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Atlatlista

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #24 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:44pm

Quote from perpetualstudent on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:22pm:

Quote from Atlatlista on Apr 17^th, 2012, 1:25pm:

To conflate scientific authority with religious authority is to commit a huge logical error. Scientific authority comes from repeated, reproduceable tests of hypotheses, from careful examination of the natural world, from open debate and examination. Religious authority is derived from none of these things.

Given my own...indecision on religious matters at the moment I'm hesitant to step into the free for all. But Dan has not committed a logical fallacy.

What is mainly being discussed is not science, but scientifically framed historical analysis. Science, as we use the term, does not properly bound itself. It is one thing to say "Look how this population of protazoa have become more mobile as we've altered their environment over their last few hundred generations". That is science, and naming that as evolution is fine. It is within the bounds of science. It is measurement and discernment of an ongoing process. We have data of a type that we chose to collect, using the experimental process.

It is another thing to examine fossils and bedrock and say that scientifically you can prove what was millions of years ago. You cannot scientifically prove that. What you are doing is deducing from a scientific principle and current data, and inferring from that. It is not science. It is scientifically framed history.

Scientists try to get around this. I've had one professor who claimed history as a science in order to achieve logical consistency. I've had another who claimed that what mattered for science was that it was self correcting in response to evidence. Both of these from very intelligent men whom I respect, but who commit a huge logical error here. Regardless both step away reproducable testable hypotheses. That definition is not held by scientists themselves when they wish to step outside their bounds and enter into historical analysis.

Please note that I am not saying that we shouldn't do scientifically framed history. We should. But we should never conflate history and science. Dan is right in that respect. When we discuss paleontology we are discussing history. And history requires faith in something and insecurity in our answers. Science must be properly bound.

I disagree completely. When you have, for example, samples of mastic accurately dated to 80,000 years BP, you know empirically that mastic existed as a compound 80,000 years BP. When you start talking about source documents, you get really fuzzy, but I think the paleontological and archaeological side of things is pretty cut and dry. Yeah, there is room to misinterpret things, but that exists in all of science, anytime a scientist does something other than report an observation.

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Pikåru

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #25 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:58pm

Quote from Morphy on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:16pm:

Quote from Pikaru on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:08pm:

Quote from Morphy on Apr 17^th, 2012, 2:00pm:

So far we have established 1. That David killed the Witch-King, Lord of the Nazgul and 2. That mankind has yet to come to a common consensus on religion.

The first point, shocking. The second, not so much.

I'm still trying to helicopter my way down the street to grab some lunch. No luck so far but as soon as I do, I will post the video.

Actually any video of such an attempt would be much appreciated, successful or not. Grin

If you wear a cape while doing it, lunch is on me. Wink

My cape has been at the cleaners for some time. Now, here is my motivation to fly down there and get it.

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I sling. Therefore I am.
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http://itanohu.blogspot.com

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perpetualstudent

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #26 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 3:01pm

It's not a question that is that simply answered. Philosophically there is a huge difference between deducing (which is what your example requires) and inductive inquiry. Science (bound as I argue it should be) is inherently inductive. That is, trying to find current ongoing principles from specific instances of data. In other words. It is one thing to use data from the past to inform your experiments and the principle you are chasing. It is another to use that principle to reconstruct the past. One is science, the other is history. Conflating the two is dangerous.

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Pikåru

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #27 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 3:25pm

Quote from Dan on Apr 17^th, 2012, 1:44pm:

Pikaru, everything I can say has pretty been said, read Mere Christianity.

C.S. Lewis says there are there only 2 races, relegions, beliefs, etc. The Once born and the Twice born, there is nothing else outside of this, period.

Just as I said with Pikaru, I cannot prove Christianity to you by just disproving what you believe now, you must find it on your own. Mere Christianity is a good place to start for anyone, you can use the link in the previous post, I'm just a messanger, it's your decision whether or not to accept and pursue the message.

Dan, I've read it. CSLewis is a great writer and while it was an enjoyable read, overall I found his arguments a bit weak and unpersuasive in arguing that christianity is indeed true. I hear other christians touting this book and to the already convinced it probably enhances what they already have accepted as truth for them but the book, at least for me didn't make me realize anything new or significantly different from what I already know for me.

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curious_aardvark

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #28 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 3:26pm

well I was going to leave this discussion alone - it's currently got bugger all to do with the cartoon, which depicts very realistic slinging and should not thus be ignored.

However it is impossible to seperate science and history as the study of history uses the scientific method.

Science is simply a coherent way of examining things and events and trying to ascertain information from said things and events.
That's it.

Now can we get back to the advertised program

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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One - works for me

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perpetualstudent

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Re: David vs Goliath cartoon version
Reply #29 - Apr 17^th, 2012, 5:40pm

Would it be possible for a mod to move the off-topic posts to its own thread?

With respect C_A, I believe that your position is wrong. It is a common position but is a problematically wide definition. What you've described is more a world-view or a religion than it is science as defined by use of the scientific method or even the standard of falsifiablity (which is largely impossible within a theory see Kuhn's structure of scientific revolution) . Religion/mythology also offers "a coherent way of examining things and events and trying to ascertain information from said things and events" only they suss out morals instead of scientific laws and theories. But mythos and science are both after meaning. For this reason I think it is important, even imperative, for science to be properly bound and defined. I'm well aware that definitions can be problematic (I'm sure most of the members here know that defining a weapon well is all but impossible) even unattainable at times. But science, as it claims to be qualitatively different from other worldviews and is recognized as offering the authoritative stance on reality, must be defined. I'm certainly not a post modernist, but it is because of overly wide definitions of science that the fashionable nonsense of postmodernism gained traction late last century.

The difference between scientific (using the scientific method with falsifiability, repeatability and experimentation) and the forensic/historic (inferring past facts using principles [logical and scientific] and data collected after the fact) is important. You can prove scientifically that gravity (or something with all the characteristics of gravity) exists scientifically. You can assert that the sling has existed for centuries on multiple continents forensically. To distinguish between the two does not diminish one or the other, it simply notes the differences.

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