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Were there any mounted slingers??? (Read 1527 times)
Jabames
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #30 - Mar 24th, 2012, 2:51pm
 
why she leave?
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Thearos
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #31 - Mar 24th, 2012, 6:22pm
 
Quote from Dan on Mar 24th, 2012, 9:28am:


The only use I could see using a horse with a sling is either dropping me off into battle where I would dismount the horse and sling at the oncoming force. Or if you had a Mule or wome kind of lad bearing animal, you could have them walk back and forth behind the battle lines carrrying extra ammo for the slingers sif they needed it.

Still slingers are best when being very very light infantry not heavy calvary.

 
Roman professional cavalrymen, at the hight of the empire's military might, practised slinging from horseback, as well as crossbow shooting and javelin work-- but not, note, horse archery. This is explicitly attested by two sources, one a speech by the emperor Hadrian, one a manual of military drill, both C2nd AD.  
 
Was this a curiosum ? (i.e. showing off such level of proficiency that they could do tricks like horseback slinging). Or was this something tactically very serious ?  
 
The way Roman cavalry works, in the imperial period, is a stage of javelin work from horseback (using the momentum of the horse), often with wheeling manoeuvers, and of course close in work with lance and sword and shield. You can see this e.g. in Tacitus narrative, or Josephus. It's well treated in the various books on Roman cavalry (Hyland, or Junkelmann, or Connolly...).  It is possible that slinging from horseback (and also throwing stones from horseback) was something you did when prolonging the missile phrase, once you had used up your javelins and darts. I suppose that the disadvantage (not being able to put in full body torsion) is palliated by the momentum of the horse. The aim, then, is not long range engagements (like slingers on foot do-- perhaps extreme range, more likely tactically significant ranges like 80-100m), but being able to keep on wheeling back and forth by ranks, squadrons and individually to maintain a shower of missiles at ranged enemy troops, mounted or on foot. The range is not  huge-- 40-50 m ?-- and hence well within the capacities of mounted slinging.  
 
Did the Roman cavalrymen sling from horseback with a shield ? Probably, to keep themselves from return fire, especially if mounted slinging was meant to take place in the missile exchange.  
 
No horse archery: this requires real training, whereas horse slingery is just an emergency special trick Roman cavalry do. Especially since some of them will have been legionaries, or have gone through legionary training (this is true of the elite legionary cavalry), where (if Vegetius is to be trusted) slinging and stone throwing was part of the basic training legionaries underwent.
 
Did the Romans invent this trick ? I'd rather say that it reflects the extreme versatility of their troops, included specialists like cavalry.  
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #32 - Mar 24th, 2012, 6:50pm
 
Quote from Little on Mar 24th, 2012, 2:51pm:
why she leave?

 
She should be traveling to Santiago de Compostela, Spain, on a pilgrimage now.
Unluckily Italy is not on her way  Grin
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Jabames
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #33 - Mar 24th, 2012, 6:52pm
 
haha ahh
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #34 - Mar 25th, 2012, 4:09am
 
Quote from Thearos on Mar 23rd, 2012, 6:29pm:
I think those "Scythians" are in fact riding ibexes, so it's a fantasy image (like pygmies fighting cranes).

 
If the anatomical details can be trusted, the ankles and hooves and fetlocks show those to be real horses, not ibexes.  Of course, the artists could have just used horsemen for reference and then just put ibex heads on the horse bodies.  It reminds me of a (probably apocryphal) story about how the original california bear flag was drawn with a pig for reference, as grizzly bears were not so readily available (or cooperative).  It certainly looked rather porcine.  It has since been redrawn, using the last known california grizzly as a reference.
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #35 - Mar 25th, 2012, 10:32am
 
There must be a trick to mounted slinging: timing the release so that it coincides with the "down' phase of the gallop sequence ? So as to maximize the force ?
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jlasud
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #36 - Mar 25th, 2012, 3:24pm
 
Thearos,this is what i suspect that it could be used in "mounted slingery" Also the rider could whip his upper body as it was part of the horse.Those who ride a horse in gallop know what i mean. I haven't done both at the same time just i imagine it could work.
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #37 - Mar 25th, 2012, 4:22pm
 
I am sure that guys could manage it easily. Gathering stones from the ground wouldn't be a problem for them either Cheesy
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSBul_EZAVE
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In the shape, structure and position of each stone, there is recorded a small piece of history. So, slinging them, we add a bit of our history to them.
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #38 - Mar 26th, 2012, 11:42am
 
Very impressive.  I lived in Korea in the mid seventies and never knew anything about this event.  I'm sorry I missed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlBd-C2QreA&feature=related
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #39 - Mar 26th, 2012, 5:38pm
 
Quote from Thearos on Mar 24th, 2012, 6:22pm:
Quote from Dan on Mar 24th, 2012, 9:28am:


The only use I could see using a horse with a sling is either dropping me off into battle where I would dismount the horse and sling at the oncoming force. Or if you had a Mule or wome kind of lad bearing animal, you could have them walk back and forth behind the battle lines carrrying extra ammo for the slingers sif they needed it.

Still slingers are best when being very very light infantry not heavy calvary.


Roman professional cavalrymen, at the hight of the empire's military might, practised slinging from horseback, as well as crossbow shooting and javelin work-- but not, note, horse archery. This is explicitly attested by two sources, one a speech by the emperor Hadrian, one a manual of military drill, both C2nd AD.

Was this a curiosum ? (i.e. showing off such level of proficiency that they could do tricks like horseback slinging). Or was this something tactically very serious ?

The way Roman cavalry works, in the imperial period, is a stage of javelin work from horseback (using the momentum of the horse), often with wheeling manoeuvers, and of course close in work with lance and sword and shield. You can see this e.g. in Tacitus narrative, or Josephus. It's well treated in the various books on Roman cavalry (Hyland, or Junkelmann, or Connolly...).  It is possible that slinging from horseback (and also throwing stones from horseback) was something you did when prolonging the missile phrase, once you had used up your javelins and darts. I suppose that the disadvantage (not being able to put in full body torsion) is palliated by the momentum of the horse. The aim, then, is not long range engagements (like slingers on foot do-- perhaps extreme range, more likely tactically significant ranges like 80-100m), but being able to keep on wheeling back and forth by ranks, squadrons and individually to maintain a shower of missiles at ranged enemy troops, mounted or on foot. The range is not  huge-- 40-50 m ?-- and hence well within the capacities of mounted slinging.

Did the Roman cavalrymen sling from horseback with a shield ? Probably, to keep themselves from return fire, especially if mounted slinging was meant to take place in the missile exchange.

No horse archery: this requires real training, whereas horse slingery is just an emergency special trick Roman cavalry do. Especially since some of them will have been legionaries, or have gone through legionary training (this is true of the elite legionary cavalry), where (if Vegetius is to be trusted) slinging and stone throwing was part of the basic training legionaries underwent.

Did the Romans invent this trick ? I'd rather say that it reflects the extreme versatility of their troops, included specialists like cavalry.

This is an excellent post.  Thanks, Thearos.
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Thearos
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #40 - Mar 26th, 2012, 6:07pm
 
No, don't thank me-- I really appreciate the opportunity to think something through, to get more precise, and to share it like a bee.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #41 - Mar 26th, 2012, 8:00pm
 
Well said Thearos  Smiley
Greetings,
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Thearos
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Re: Were there any mounted slingers???
Reply #42 - Mar 27th, 2012, 3:02pm
 
OK, horse slingery drill time.  
 
Three targets:
 
 
A-------B----------C
 
 
about 30 m distant each ? Man-sized targets.  
 
 
1. Horseman rides straight towards A. At 40 m or so, he slings at A. He then turns and rides along, slinging at B as he rides past. At the end of the run, as he wheels away, he slings at C. Repeat until able to hit three targets reliably.  
 
2. Same, but at a gallop.  
 
3. Same, but with people behind the targets throwing dummy javelins at the horseman.  
 
The horseman has a long shield, and reloads in the saddle from a pouch at his waist, passing stone and pouch and cords back and forth between the two hands with ease.  
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