Slinging.org Forum - What are the grounds for Revolution?

perpetualstudent Funditor Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 625 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #75 - Mar 15^th, 2012 at 9:45pm Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 15^th, 2012 at 8:59pm: I've said it before, I think I'm the most morbidly depressing misanthrope on slinging.org. Near as I can tell, there's some pretty healthy competition for that title.
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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #76 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 3:42pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 15^th, 2012 at 8:59pm:

I've said it before, I think I'm the most morbidly depressing misanthrope on slinging.org.

I don't think so, I just think it's hard for a non-European to understand how "more amoral" than a "simple" assassination was the fascist wind that spread through Europe in the first half of 1900.
Killing is always amoral, and it's ok. But you need to extirpate the rotten tooth don't you?
For a long, long time, a non-fascist Italian was held at gunpoint by the fascists. Beating, humiliation, murders.
A whole generation of Italians had to waste their youth fighting that system.
Now you say they were as amoral as their fascists opponents; but thanks to their amorality every Italian, of any political, sexual or religious view, is now free to walk the streets without fear of being persecuted.
What you believe has been these fighter's amorality has guaranteed us today's freedom.
Greetings,
Mauro.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2012 at 5:49pm by Mauro Fiorentini »

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Masiakasaurus Slinging.org Moderator Offline mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us Posts: 5016 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #77 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm I'm saying that the partisans committed a revolution that was as amoral as the fascist revolution. I'm not saying that the partisans were as immoral as fascists, because the fascists did more that was immoral in addition to the revolution. There is a difference between immoral people and amoral acts.
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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #78 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 5:49pm

I'm glad to hear that! There's just a doubt left, and I bet it's due to my poor knowledge of English: you said revolutions are amoral, but there can be revolutions lead by moral, or at least non-amoral, people.
But since actions reflects people's needs, desires and so on, how can an action be judged amoral and its proponents not? (philosophy time here at slinging.org Grin

).
In the meantime, I just realized that "moral" is the English word for the Italian "honest". The Italian term "morale" can be translated in "ethics". So perhaps we've been discussing with a basic misunderstanding, but I find these discussions interesting! Even if we've been monopolizing this topic lately Cheesy

Greetings,
Mauro.

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perpetualstudent

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #79 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 6:10pm

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 5:49pm:

revolutions are amoral, but there can be revolutions lead by moral, or at least non-amoral, people. But since actions reflects people's needs, desires and so on, how can an action be judged amoral and its proponents not? (philosophy time here at slinging.org Grin

).

I agree wholeheartedly that revolutions can be led by moral men, as can government and that I think is an important point. It is not the revolution that is moral or immoral, but the men and women behind it. Morality is inherently tied up with intent. To go even deeper into philosophy, every action is amoral. My typing this, my sitting on a sofa, leading a revolution, going to a job, donating money. All of them are amoral, without any moral aspect. It is only the context (including intent) that makes an action moral or immoral.

Revolution then is amoral.
However a specific revolution and its government can be moral or immoral as the decisions the men and women make while running it are moral or immoral.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 5:49pm:

In the meantime, I just realized that "moral" is the English word for the Italian "honest". The Italian term "morale" can be translated in "ethics". So perhaps we've been discussing with a basic misunderstanding, but I find these discussions interesting! Even if we've been monopolizing this topic lately Cheesy

Greetings,
Mauro.

That is an interesting translation. I wouldn't say though that moral means honest (though I can see why it could be translated that way because of intent). Ethics is probably a better translation. yay for epistimology with a language barrier Cheesy

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Morphy

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #80 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 6:51pm

I agree it all comes down to intent and to take this into a small tangent I've always believed God judges based solely on intent and not what actually happens.

Getting back to revolution though, if your laws are just and fair and your "intent" is to have more power and less fairness then the revolution becomes immoral. I think in the case of the USA the fact that even after the U.S. succeeded in winning their independence they still put in place a constitution hell-bent on keeping government control to a minimum and giving as much power to the common man as possible is a good indication that the intent was moral. But that's just me seeing things through my own biased eyes. Just my 2 cents.

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Aussie Past Moderator Offline Joined Nov. 1, 2006 Luke 14:14 Posts: 3265 Melbourne, Australia Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #81 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 10:31pm Guys, there's quite a difference between the meanings of "immoral" and "amoral".
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Morphy Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Checkmate Posts: 2447	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #82 - Mar 16^th, 2012 at 11:56pm Aussie wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 10:31pm: Guys, there's quite a difference between the meanings of "immoral" and "amoral". Of course. EDIT: FWIW, I am speaking immoral/moral.
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Masiakasaurus Slinging.org Moderator Offline mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us Posts: 5016 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #83 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 12:04am For the most part I meant amoral, a person who is indifferent to morality or an event that does not involve a question of right or wrong. Revolution isn't good or bad, it just is. Reading back through my posts I should have used "immoral" to refer to the fascists, who were bad people and not just indifferent.
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Mauro Fiorentini Slinging.org Moderator Offline Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3076 Ancona, Italy. Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #84 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 9:40am Morphy wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 6:51pm: I agree it all comes down to intent and to take this into a small tangent I've always believed God judges based solely on intent and not what actually happens. I believe the very same thing!! Greetings, Mauro.
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perpetualstudent

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #85 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 11:59am

Aussie wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 10:31pm:

Guys, there's quite a difference between the meanings of "immoral" and "amoral".

indeed, and I think I used all three terms exactly as I wished in my posts.

I almost agree with you both. In that intent comprises the lion share of morality (imho), but I think that it's not completely that simple. In that if you kill someone accidentally you still did wrong. Even though you didn't mean to, you are still responsible. And all cultures make allowance for this, but we still punish manslaughter. There's a paradox there that I don't yet understand.

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Morphy

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #86 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 1:08pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 11:59am:

Aussie wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 10:31pm:

Guys, there's quite a difference between the meanings of "immoral" and "amoral".

indeed, and I think I used all three terms exactly as I wished in my posts.

I almost agree with you both. In that intent comprises the lion share of morality (imho), but I think that it's not completely that simple. In that if you kill someone accidentally you still did wrong. Even though you didn't mean to, you are still responsible. And all cultures make allowance for this, but we still punish manslaughter. There's a paradox there that I don't yet understand.

Perhaps the paradox comes from Man's need to place blame even in situations where the person is completely innocent because society can never be totally sure whether someone truly didn't mean to or was not in some way negligent. If a young child accidentally kills someone, the child is never held accountable because they are in a state of innocence which in this case translates to a state of pure (meaning without evil) intent.

With young children this is easy to judge, but with those who are no longer in a state of innocence there is always questions of intent, or at the very least, degrees of negligence. As a result manslaughter laws fill a middle ground so to speak in between innocence and guilt based on our imperfect understanding of a situation. Hypothetically speaking God would never be in doubt of one's true intent, so there would never be any question as to how much blame (and therefore severity of punishment) was to be applied given any specific situation.

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Morphy

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #87 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 1:10pm

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Morphy wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 6:51pm:

I agree it all comes down to intent and to take this into a small tangent I've always believed God judges based solely on intent and not what actually happens.

I believe the very same thing!!
Greetings,
Mauro.

For some reason I got the impression you didn't hold to spiritual beliefs, I guess I was mistaken. That's cool. Cheesy

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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #88 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 1:14pm

Nope, I have some religious beliefs, but it seems to me that these are always changing, perhaps due to my youth.
I still have to find the true faith - if there's one - but I keep asking questions to myself about our role here and what I have to do with my life.
I've achieved some certainties though, and that is one of them

Greetings,
Mauro.

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HurlinThom

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #89 - Mar 17^th, 2012 at 10:41pm

A bit off off topic, but since religion is being brought into a topic on revolution, there was a term "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" current during the Vietnam War. It actually dates back to the crusade against the Cathars in southern France. back in the early 1200s There is truly no new thing under the sun.

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