Slinging.org Forum - What are the grounds for Revolution?

Masiakasaurus

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #120 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 4:42pm

Quote from nemo on Mar 31^st, 2012, 11:54am:

Without meaning to cause offense by this comment, and if it does I apologise and dont feel the need to answer it.

It is a question I have questioned in the Crusades and in the Viking periods, and is similar to this situation. Why should you carry any weapon if you have faith in God?
Moses did not carry weapons into Eygpt when he demanded that the Pharoh let his people go, Jesus (himself) did not carry weapons when he did the same in Jerusalem. If you have faith in God's judgement and God's power, then surely you can have faith that he will protect you from any harm, or it is his judgement that your time has come to an end?

As I say, I dont mean to be rude by this at all or question anyones strength of faith, but just a reasoning I never understood?

Nemo

There's a cliché you hear a lot in the States, "God helps those who help themselves." It is not actually written in the Bible, but it is a common belief in Christianity. Do as much as you possibly can for yourself, help others as much as you can afford to, accept help when it is offered, and everything that you still lack is left for God to deal with.

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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #121 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 8:08pm

Quote from nemo on Mar 31^st, 2012, 11:54am:

It is a question I have questioned in the Crusades and in the Viking periods, and is similar to this situation. Why should you carry any weapon if you have faith in God?
Moses did not carry weapons into Eygpt when he demanded that the Pharoh let his people go, Jesus (himself) did not carry weapons when he did the same in Jerusalem. If you have faith in God's judgement and God's power, then surely you can have faith that he will protect you from any harm, or it is his judgement that your time has come to an end?
Nemo

This is one of the most common questions I ask myself when I reflect about religion.
We had many examples of saints who believed so firmly in God that they didn't fear death of injuries. One of them is St. Francis of Assisi, who created so much trouble to the Church that the Pope decided to call him "the 2nd Jesus" rather than to accept his way of life as a "simple" saint.
But every religion has these saints, and I really believe that they 100% represent what the better religion should be: respect, humility, tolerance and altruism, as ways to get closer to God(s).
I also believe that any other topic, such as holy wars, converting people, spreading our religion... belongs to the material world, not the divine one, and therefore they shouldn't be treated like religious topics.
Greetings,
Mauro.

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perpetualstudent

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #122 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 8:34pm

It's a fair question, and not shockingly there are well entrenched positions within Christianity fighting to the death over these things. This is the loooong and slightly more subtle version of Masi's point which is incredibly close to the mark.

From a more atheistic point of view you can simply say that a religion that truly taught (and its adherents behaved in accordance with the teaching) that you don't have to work for anything (God will take care of everything) would not last long. It would yield nothing but a short lived sect that starved itself to death. Indeed taken to the logical end, they shouldn't even eat free food provided for them because if God wanted to them to live they would live even if they didn't eat it. So if they had faith that God would have them live they shouldn't eat it. Which is past the point of ridicule by miles.

This does introduce a paradox, most notable in Calvinists (who believe that everything is predestined, irreversibly, agreeing that God created some humans specifically to go to hell). By their logic they should lead an utterly hedonistic lifestyle and not bother about outreach because everyone was already destined for heaven or hell when they were born. But they actually tend to spend a lot of time and effort in outreach and ministry.

At this point they will inevitably pull out Paul's analogy of the church as the body of Christ, so that it is not them but God working through them. That they are literally possessed agents of God's will on this corporeal plane acting as He commands them.

It boils down to interpretation of text. Most sects agree that it is necessary to act in accord with conscience while seeking God's will, and that violence though always regrettable might be necessary to protect others and/or punish certain sins (which is the start of a whole other debate Roll Eyes

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Dan

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #123 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 8:38pm

Nemo, because I have faith in God I have no fear of man, and I feel a responceiblity to not only save souls but if the time comes, lives as well.

Masi as far as I know I think that's just a common cliche and one that's not-as far as I know- very common amoung Christians as it's not very theologicaly sound. However to prove this I'd have to survey a very large amount of Christians in the U.S., and even if they do use it that doesn't mean it's right.

Aussie, it's all the Bible, granted the Missions for Christians shifted after the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ (It was a pretty Magnanamous thing), but as perpetual student said, the law stands into the "NT" world as well.

To answer a previous question, 100% liberty requires great people, very very little government, and God. If you really want to find out check out the early-mid 1700's in the U.S. Then when these great liberties were broken, there was taxation without representation, attempted confiscation of fireamrs (lexington and concord, very important), and a host of other what at that time were considered outrageous endevors (mainly tyrrany though), however today it's all we know and is considered normal.

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nemo

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #124 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 9:11pm

Thank you for that answer, and one verse that came to mind recently was the parable of the 3 sons and the talents, when even just burying the talent and keeping it safe, that lack of action wasnt good enough, and only when we act upon the gifts are we doing the right thing. Obviously it is just a story and we can each have our own opinion on it, but it seems pretty sound morals in the long run from that.

Nemo

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nemo

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #125 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 9:29pm

Quote from Dan on Mar 31^st, 2012, 8:38pm:

Nemo, because I have faith in God I have no fear of man, and I feel a responceiblity to not only save souls but if the time comes, lives as well.

I do get this, but in the situation of you being mugged on your own, with the attacker holding you by knife, whos life bar your own are you saving? I do understand that you should not test God with your faith, such as jumping off a cliff to see if you dont die, I agree pointless death is a waste and against the teachings of the Bible.
But in a case like this, what is to stop you from fighting him by hand, or attempting to run away, or just giving in and handing him what he asks for. None of these solutions are just a careless waste of life, but help both preserve your life and his.

As we all know, there are a wide range of different Christian groups, and although myself not being particulary religous, I grew up with Roman Catholic teachings. This does make it at times hard to see understandings of the Bible as it is clear that at times, my church has made a different interpretation from yours.
In this case, I have been taught that we should see every soul as capable of redemption. No matter what ever sins committed or actions the person has done, if they truly repent and accept the word of God, God will forgive them and they will be welcomed in Heaven. In this case, surely then if you are happy with the way you have lived your life and feel you have earned a place in heaven, then surely it is better if one of the two die, that it is you so that he may have time to repent on earth and save his soul, as your place on earth really doesnt matter in the long run of things, while an eternity in heaven or hell matters a whole lot more.

As I say though, a different interpretation of this sort of situation can change everything and so I could be well off!

Nemo

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Morphy

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #126 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 9:44pm

Quote from nemo on Mar 31^st, 2012, 9:29pm:

Quote from Dan on Mar 31^st, 2012, 8:38pm:

Nemo, because I have faith in God I have no fear of man, and I feel a responceiblity to not only save souls but if the time comes, lives as well.

I do get this, but in the situation of you being mugged on your own, with the attacker holding you by knife, whos life bar your own are you saving? I do understand that you should not test God with your faith, such as jumping off a cliff to see if you dont die, I agree pointless death is a waste and against the teachings of the Bible.
But in a case like this, what is to stop you from fighting him by hand, or attempting to run away, or just giving in and handing him what he asks for. None of these solutions are just a careless waste of life, but help both preserve your life and his.

As we all know, there are a wide range of different Christian groups, and although myself not being particulary religous, I grew up with Roman Catholic teachings. This does make it at times hard to see understandings of the Bible as it is clear that at times, my church has made a different interpretation from yours.
In this case, I have been taught that we should see every soul as capable of redemption. No matter what ever sins committed or actions the person has done, if they truly repent and accept the word of God, God will forgive them and they will be welcomed in Heaven. In this case, surely then if you are happy with the way you have lived your life and feel you have earned a place in heaven, then surely it is better if one of the two die, that it is you so that he may have time to repent on earth and save his soul, as your place on earth really doesnt matter in the long run of things, while an eternity in heaven or hell matters a whole lot more.

As I say though, a different interpretation of this sort of situation can change everything and so I could be well off!

Nemo

Deep stuff Nemo, you make some interesting points.

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Dan

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #127 - Mar 31^st, 2012, 10:00pm

I am absolutly positive I am not worthy of earning a place in heaven as this is only possible by living exactly by God's standards of which all men have fallen short of, including me. Thankfully Jesus Christ took my punishment and has granted me the gift of eternal life, which I have accpeted, and I know try to live a life worthy of Christ sacrifice.

I have been practicing and teaching Kenpo for 8 years so if is is God's Will I could probably defend myself reasonably well (probably still take a few good hits) with y empty hands if it came down to it. I know God has more plans for my life and I am sure that I will act in whatever situation exactly the way I should. If that means handing over my wallet, which scarecly has more than $20 and a small whistle, so be it. If it means taking a life I will do so as well. If someone else's life was on the line I wouldn't hesitate to act.

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1 Samuel 14:7

"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8

SALVATION: By Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.

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Mauro Fiorentini Slinging.org Moderator Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3072 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #128 - Apr 1^st, 2012, 7:47pm And as the Christian Party used to say while on electoral campaign here in Italy:"When you're in the polling booth God sees you, Stalin won't" Just a little joke to temper the tone, we're talking about religion and any view of it is correct. Greetings, Mauro.
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Morphy Interfector Viris Spurii Checkmate Posts: 2432	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #129 - Apr 1^st, 2012, 8:03pm If your current line of work ever bores you Mauro, maybe you should look into diplomacy. You seem very good at it.
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Mauro Fiorentini Slinging.org Moderator Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3072 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #130 - Apr 2^nd, 2012, 4:16am And quoting the most beautiful movie ever (see related poll on this forum):"We (mods) are on a mission from God"... just to remain in topic Greetings, Mauro.
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perpetualstudent Funditor Slinging Rocks! Posts: 609 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #131 - Apr 2^nd, 2012, 7:11am so the question then is, where is the awesome music and random destruction?
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Mauro Fiorentini Slinging.org Moderator Forge your future with the hammer of your mind! Posts: 3072 Gender:	Re: What are the grounds for Revolution? Reply #132 - Apr 2^nd, 2012, 7:25am For the music, ask God (Youtube). For the random destruction... do you remember the Holy Epic War on Spam that has been fought between Slingers and Spammers during last winter? If not, ask our elder members over here... Greetings, Mauro.
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Greenman

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #133 - Apr 6^th, 2012, 3:50pm

[quote author=Aussie link=1331423332/0#5 date=1331469014]Have you guys taken leave of your senses!!?? No wonder Kuggur finally got fed up! All this talk of revolution and overthrowing tyrannical governments is just so much CRAP it's unbelievable. I think you Yanks live in some sort of lala land and you just don't have any concept of what a tyrannical government is. You guys are surrounded by so much freedom, the US is probably the freest society in the history of mankind. And all this talk of the US Constitution guaranteeing the right to rebel is just nonsense. The Constitution is there to preserve the US not destroy it! Planning revolutions is treason, and so it should be.quote]

With great respect my man, how blind are you???

If you are still screaming that revolution is treason, you fail to grasp the gravity and size of the whole picture.

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Rat Man

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Re: What are the grounds for Revolution?
Reply #134 - Apr 6^th, 2012, 5:01pm

I get what Aussie is saying. Many in America who speak of revolution have never been beyond these borders. Go live abroad for a year or two in some little crap hole country. When you get back here you'll probably kiss the ground. America is FAR from perfect, but compared to most of the rest of the world it's heaven.

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