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Are You a Patriot? (Read 1324 times)
Rat Man
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Are You a Patriot?
Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:17am
 
Do you consider yourself a patriot?  If not, why?  If so, what does that actually mean to you?  I suspect that this is a topic that can heat up quickly so please, as always, try to be respectful to those who see things differently than you.
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Rat Man
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #1 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:31am
 
    Normally I sit back and wait for a few responses, but I'll start the ball rolling this time.  I'm a yes, I consider myself a patriot.  I can see several of you cringing as you read this.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of those "My country, right or wrong" rednecks.  Not everything my country does or did is or has been good.  America has made huge mistakes and done some horrendous things.  But we have the means to fix or if not at least stop such errors.  To anyone who hates America and actually lives here I suggest that you spend some time in a Third World nation.  Once you see how real corruption and hopelessness takes hold America starts to look pretty good. 
   Besides that, my ancestors have lived here for several hundred years.  This country had fed, clothed, and educated me my entire life.  It's medical system, flawed as it is, keeps me alive.  I'm glad that I was able to give six years of my life in repayment.  I'm proud that I did so.
    As misguided as our foreign policy can be, at times abysmally so, I still shudder to think what the world would be like if America never existed.  My country can be wrong, can make very bad mistakes, but I still love America and would die to defend it.  (Not just a metaphor)
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kuggur slingdog
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #2 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:36pm
 
No, I am not.  Patriotism is a pretty tainted term where I come from.
There are (probably) legit reasons for killing your fellow men. I don´t count "for your country" among them. And for the US citizens thinking their country should be "defended", I ask from what? When was the last time a foreign army threatened to invade your soil?
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #3 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:57pm
 
I think we're getting patriotism and nationalism mixed up. Patriotism is devotion to one's country, as in the place where you were born and the people in it. Nationalism is devotion to your government and it's policies both foreign and domestic.

I consider myself both a patriot and a nationalist. I love where I live, and I feel that I have a special connection to it. I support my government not because I think it's perfect but because I think it's redeemable and in our current system I have the power to change what I feel is wrong. Both should be defended, in my opinion, from external threats such as hostile nations and also from internal threats such as corruption and jingoism. It doesn't matter to me if there have been no recent threats to the sovereignty of the United States or the safety of the people in it. I keep my important documents in a fire-proof safe even though I've never been in a fire, I carry an umbrella when there is only a marginal chance of rain, and I have insurance though I am perfectly healthy right now. Defense of "Queen and Country" is practical and what I would call good stewardship.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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kuggur slingdog
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #4 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:14pm
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:57pm:
I think we're getting patriotism and nationalism mixed up. Patriotism is devotion to one's country, as in the place where you were born and the people in it. Nationalism is devotion to your government and it's policies both foreign and domestic.

I consider myself both a patriot and a nationalist..

No offense Masia, but it sounds to me like handing over your brain....

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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #5 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:17pm
 
I would say I'm a patriot, the American education system has at least done that to me Wink. In comparison to many other countries in the west I would rather live in America. So yes, I do love my country. I don't however, agree with many of it's policy's. Plus we've pretty much committed mass genocide- Native Americans are extremely rare these days. I won't even begin on Slavery.

BTW: does this have anything to do with tonight's superbowl? Giants vs Patriots? Then I'm a patriots fan, I can't stand giants so by default I'm rooting for the other.
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« Last Edit: Feb 5th, 2012 at 4:44pm by xxkid123 »  

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kuggur slingdog
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #6 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:27pm
 
In my opinion patriotism/nationalism does not have a lot do do with love for your country.
Don´t forget that these things played very prominent roles in the nazi propaganda machine, making it very suspect here in Europe.
Warmongers all over the world have abused these kind of feelings.
Are your soldiers in Irak defending the US? really?

NB Ratman, a couple of hundred of years is a very, very short period of time, just a couple of generations...
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #7 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:42pm
 
First of all: as Rat Man wrote, let this topic be respectful and keep it on an adult level.
That said, please remember that English is not my mother language, and you may have the feeling that I'm writing in a polemic or quarreling tone. This is not, the following are just my ideas and I have absolutely no intention to quarrel with anybody (at least not on a frivolous matter such as being patriotic or not)  Smiley


And now my ideas...
I am not a patriot, for a very simple reason: I was born in Italy just by chance.
Mixing up  Wink being patriotic and nationalist, I consider my life much more valuable than any Nation, State or Country I could live in. This because I can't see any good reason for the existance of borders and boundaries.
I also believe that concepts like welfare, medical system, public education and so on are transient too.
I consider myself citizen of the world (understood as a group of people willing to cooperate and work toghether) rather than being merely an Italian, for the idea that I belong to an Italian ensemble is somehow limiting.
More anarchically, I've a strong faith on people's humaneness, which is, I believe, able to rule our lives much better than the adoption of laws and borders.
That said, I love to live in this place, which has been called, during various times, "Ombro", "Regio VI Picena", "Italia", "Esarcato", "Pentapoli", "Marca Anconitana", "Stato della Chiesa", and then "Italia" again.
I love most of the people that surround me, I love the places, I love the fact that we're the result of a "melting pot" (which still happens everyday). I love to live in a place which gave the world some of its most important thinkers and art. I love the fact that our medical system is free and our school is, too.
But I don't feel any property right on these things, and I don't fear anybody who would destroy such a system. Why destroy something that works so well?


That said, I'm not going to join the Italian Army in any war, as long as our politician's sons remain at home, as they have always done during the last 150 years. Because I'm not cannon fodder and there're higher reasons I'd die for, rather than the concept of "Italian nation": my family, my freedom, my house, the fact that we all have the same rights, duties and freedoms.
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #8 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 4:29pm
 
Assuming that you are not being sarcastic, Kuggur, here is my opinion:

I believe I addressed jingoism in my original post, but let me expand on it. Jingoism and Ultranationalism (fanaticism about one's government and prejudice against other governments, respectively) are two of the greatest corrupting influences on a government and the people in it and Naziism was a horrible, horrible thing. I do not think I am "handing over my brain" because I do think about what my government does and I choose to protest against what I feel is wrong. Just recently I participated in a large scale protest against internet censorship in the US, writing letter to many in my government. Not surprisingly, it worked. My government still listens to the wishes of its people, which makes me believe that it is still redeemable. I am a nationalist devoted to my government because I choose to change it rather than leave the country.

As for the association of Naziism and nationalism, it is a non-argument. The Nazis made cheap automobiles, is afford-ability bad? Naziism began in Germany, is being German bad? Naziism was horrible and I fervently wish that it will disappear forever, but I will not fall into the trap of ultranationalism buy implying any other government has an association to Naziism. The way I choose to accomplish that is to actively fight against similar ideas within my government. Regrettably I have no voice in other's governments, but I hope other nationalists will fight to keep their countries from crossing that line.

As for US soldiers in Iraq, I will gladly expound upon it via PM in order to prevent this thread from spiraling into a fight but I am fairly certain that it was a rhetorical question.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Rat Man
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #9 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 5:25pm
 
Quote:
NB Ratman, a couple of hundred of years is a very, very short period of time, just a couple of generations...


It's not a short time for an American.  Unless you're a Native American, your forefathers were immigrants.  We are a "mongrel nation," as Hitler called us.  I am Lithuanian, British, French Canadian, and Iroquois and I'm not unique.  My daughter is Lithuanian, British, French Canadian, Iroquois,  Italian, German, Irish, French, and Cherokee.  You get the idea.  A few hundred years is as long as anyone else I know.  Besides that, even if I were second generation I'd still feel the same.  
   Also, there's much more to Patriotism than just killing your fellow man in a war.  It's how you live your life.  Is your community, state, country better or worse because you live there?  Are you part of the problem or part of the solution.  Going to work, paying your taxes, being a law abiding citizen, being a good neighbor, voting conscientiously, etc... they're all part of it.  I've never killed anyone in my life.
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #10 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 9:49pm
 

God should and will always come first in my heart, thankfully right now, that's the way it is here in the U.S.  
I love my country and, if it is asked of me, I am willing to defend the freedoms we have here with my life.
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #11 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:07pm
 
Today I am a GIANT!!!!!!!!! Grin.............................................................sorry, it's a New York thing.
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #12 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:33pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:31am:
   Normally I sit back and wait for a few responses, but I'll start the ball rolling this time.  I'm a yes, I consider myself a patriot.  I can see several of you cringing as you read this.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of those "My country, right or wrong" rednecks.  Not everything my country does or did is or has been good.  America has made huge mistakes and done some horrendous things.  But we have the means to fix or if not at least stop such errors.  To anyone who hates America and actually lives here I suggest that you spend some time in a Third World nation.  Once you see how real corruption and hopelessness takes hold America starts to look pretty good.  
  Besides that, my ancestors have lived here for several hundred years.  This country had fed, clothed, and educated me my entire life.  It's medical system, flawed as it is, keeps me alive.  I'm glad that I was able to give six years of my life in repayment.  I'm proud that I did so.




That "Redneck Phrase" you mention RatMan is not so bad. In full it says, " My country, right or wrong. If it's right, keep it right. If it's wrong, make it right." Something that we as Americans, should take to heart. And yes I am a Patriot. I think New York is the greatest country in the world.
   As misguided as our foreign policy can be, at times abysmally so, I still shudder to think what the world would be like if America never existed.  My country can be wrong, can make very bad mistakes, but I still love America and would die to defend it.  (Not just a metaphor)

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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:38pm
 
I would say I see myself as patriotic, but others may disagree and I hope I dont rant too much!

Coming from Belfast, this is an issue forced upon many of us from as soon as we talk. There is the constant question,  are you Catholic or are your Protestant, are you Irish or are you British. I fortunately come from a mixed family (with both a Protestant and Catholic parents) and so wasnt quite thrown in the deep in with so many prejudices, but through growing up in a school system with others who arent, I know for certain I have been heavily swayed.
Fortunately the trouble has died down here now and so me and my friends havent been caught up in much of the fighting, otherwise I can almost certainly say I would have friends who would have joined the paramilitaries.

But this is when I ask the question, what is a better reason to die for? As Mauro said, he sees his life as worth more than someone's interpretation of 'Italia', and am I right in thinking that you might give your life for someone or something you loved dearly? As one person may give their life for a person, I see giving your life for the freedom of your country that you love to be of equal importance.
Perhaps it is slightly different and the situation that brings me to such extremeism in this case, but in my view my country has been invaded and horribly persecuted by the English for hundreds of years (since before America was even re-discovered by Columbus). I know that is going pretty far back to hold a grudge, but the persecutions have gone on since then, up until 20 odd years ago (and some would still say this day). With rights taken away from the Irish, genocide committed on our nation, destruction of our culture and history, enabling a famine in a land producing plenty of food, severe mistreatment of the citizens, collusion with paramilitaries to target and murder sections of our communties are only some of the reasons why I get worked up. If a nation had committed all of these crimes against your country and ancestors (and there are more than enough living people who have been directly affected) then would you not get worked up also. When the fighting is in your own street, when you have enemy soliders sitting in your garden hedge with a gun pointed at your house, this is enough to make me want freedom.

And I know freedom wont be all flowers and rainbows. The south of Ireland is in a real state at the moment through greedy politicians and bankers. But I would rather die poor with my country independant, than rich and regretting it in my death bed.
We will all die sometime, we just need to make a mark with our life, and its up to us how we choose to do it.

Nemo
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Woonilsra
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Re: Are You a Patriot?
Reply #14 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:24pm
 
No.

I'm glad to live in America, with a wonderful education system in my town. Better than being in Nigeria.
I'm glad this government does try to improve the country, generally for the better.
I'm glad we have little corruption compared to other parts of the world, like Japan or Russia. We don't have the Yakuza controlling cities, or Putin doing whatever he wants, or the government censoring anyone they dislike.

I associate the word "patriot" with love for a countries actions and practices, not the values it claims to hold up, though those may be present in their actions. I associate it with the way it's people act. With the United States (my country of birth) I see a government  doing whatever it wants, citizens of other nations be damned. WWII? Not our problem. Pearl Harbor occurs? Down with Japanese totalitarianism. Massacre in Africa? It can wait. The U.S comes off as greedy and self absorbed. It's people ignorant and uninformed of the world, without a desire to change (for the most part). Part of U.S Declaration of Independence, second paragraph-

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
-Slavery was allowed
-Native Americans, Jews, Blacks, Atheists, Homosexuals, Women persecuted

Extreme hypocrisy. Even today, those of us here can certainly think of things we would consider injustice.

To get to the point, I am not patriotic because ideals should be admired more than a country itself or its people. I see little to admire the United States and its people for.
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