Slinging.org Forum - On using spears for combat...

snowcelt

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On using spears for combat...
Dec 12^th, 2011 at 5:56pm

In the other thread I think there may have been some misunderstanding so I thought to split this discussion away from that so as not to detract from the fantastic handwork and pictures by members like Paleoarts etc. I hope this is ok with the mods. I know a bit about spears and how to use them in a certain context. Of course there are other contexts also. One thing about combat though is that for most of us, although we may write about fighting with this or that weapon, are we really fighting? Perhaps it's just semantics but sparring to test weapon skills or taking part in tournaments which use medieval weapons involves scoring points and not (I hope) trying to kill or seriously hurt your opponent. By the same token you would hope/trust your opponent also understands this. Therefore, the modern tournament approach will modify true combat behaviour and you will take risks you might never do if the weapons were sharp and pointed.

For some reason my other posts seem to have irritated Knaight, I'd like to get some discussion going about spears and the contexts some forum members train with them. So I'll begin like this and address Knaight directly:

May I ask about your experiences? I could share some of mine too.

When did you start your martial arts training? For me, kyokushin karate for 4 years and HEMA since 2004.

Do you do Historical European Martial Arts (western) or mainly Eastern Martial Arts, a mix, something else? I do HEMA based on the treatise of Fiore dei Liberi. This system covers wrestling, dagger, sword in one hand, longsword, spear and pollaxe, and the same again in armour and on horseback. We concentrate on dagger and longsword but also occasionally spear and pollaxe. It's a feature of the system that some of the guards and strikes for sword are shared with the staff weapons so in theory, if you know one weapon you have a built in familiarity with another, although of course, each has their own peculiarities.

Are you a SCAdian? I never tried it but it looks like fun.

Have you fought in plate armour or jousted? I'm asking because you mentioned both above. I've not done either. For steel longsword freeplay, we use padded gambesons and otherwise modern protective gear and fencing masks.

Have you used hewing spears much? I haven't but I'd like to mainly becaus we thrust rather than cut with our spears. There's no reason why it couldn't be done with similar cut lines as with a sword or polleaxe, even if a cut is slower than a thrust.

Are we talking about spear versus spear or spear versus something else or in combo with a large round shield ,Viking style? What lenght spear? About 6 feet or much longer?

Looking forward to some discussion with as many people as possible.
Cheers.

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Knaight

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #1 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 2:54am

Well, for one we clearly aren't truly fighting. Its an approximation, and while scoring points is largely about managing good strikes without also being struck it isn't quite the same. It isn't just risks being different either, it isn't uncommon for various groups to ban certain strikes that one would outright rely on in actual combat. The SCA below knee restriction completely alters combat, particularly involving pole arms, some spear groups don't allow one handed lunges despite their utility, so on and so forth.

Also, snowcelt, there was no irritation, merely a correction of incorrect details. I've picked up enough of an academic demeanor to be a bit blunt and tactless sometimes, but this isn't a topic I'm likely to actually get emotional about, at least not without people holding on to really, really stupid claims* despite hard data stating they are wrong.

On martial arts: I have a little HEMA experience, with a local group, and lots of practice out of large scale organizations. I actually started with Thai swordfighting, in 2004 or so, and have kept that up. I picked up the spear in 2005, and by 2006 it was my favorite weapon by a long shot. I have a pretty mixed background, from HEMA to historical Chinese and historical Thai combat. That said, many of the same stances, same strikes, and same general principles appear all over the place. I haven't tried SCA per se, but have sparred with SCA members using SCA rules.

I have not fought in plate armor or jousted. However, I have seen jousting up close and personal, as I live relatively near Estes Park Colorado, which has a large annual jousting tournament. That said, I've studied the history of both of these.

I actually favor hewing spears. That said, it is important to remember that you can still thrust with hewing spears - this is critical, as you probably will be thrusting more than cutting.

On spears, I usually do two handed spear combat. That is sometimes against spears, sometimes against swords and shields, and sometimes as part of larger skirmishes. I haven't had the opportunity to be part of a large scale battle, unfortunately. As for spear dimensions, I usually use a spear anywhere from 6'6" to 8'. That said, I'm fairly tall, and used somewhat smaller spears when I was shorter.

*For instance, the people who insist that 40 pound swords and axes were in use, and continue to do so despite being shown the actual weights of actual swords.

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snowcelt

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #2 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 4:02am

Ok! Thanks for that. You have a very interesting hobby too! I would be wary though about making quite blunt statements when writing on the net. Whenever we say, "This is how it was, that's it. Period", we close off any possibility for further discussion, not to mention coming off as kind of rude.

I made some comments about the possibility of a spear being flexible or of having some advantages. I didn't say a flexible spear would be always better than one with a rigid shaft. Remember that even an ash spear shaft will have some flex in it. At the end of the day, I was talking about flexible not floppy. A six foot shaft that has some flex along its entire length will have a lot less in the thirds, i.e. the top, middle and butt sections. So if you use your spear two-handed, the small amout of flex in any one of these sections would still be low enough to let you beat an incoming thrust aside, close the line and make a counterthrust. Also, as spears are used primarily to thrust, the energy is directed along the long axis not across it. So even a moderate amount of flex wouldn't make a huge difference in the thrust.

I never mentioned armour but why would you try to thrust a spear through plate? It would be a daft thing to do. Obviously you would work to control the opponent's weapon and go for the weak points, face, armpits, inside elbow, palms, the seat and the backs of the legs. I guess that's one reason why the pollaxe was the preferred weapon against plate armour due to it's versatility to thrust, smash and cut with top,butt and back
spikes (bec de faucon/corbin) and an axe/hammer. if I remember correctly, jousting lances were relatively stiff but they were
designed to break on impact so as not to impart the full impact to the jouster being struck. This may have been a later development after the death of Henry the Second of France. Not much point to the sport if it's going to start bumping off the young nobility of Europe.
Finally leg strikes using a hewing or even a thrusting spear are risky as they leave your head exposed. This is the same for sword also. IMO they are a bit of a one-trick pony, you might get away with it once, you won'tget a second chance. One-handed thrusts with a long spear will allow incredible reach and they are very fast. However, to quote George Silver, "Thrusts may be set aside with te force of a child". He was referring to longsword but thrusts are easy enough to exchange or break.

I guess it's all about context, isn't it?

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Masiakasaurus

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #3 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 10:24am

snowcelt wrote on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 4:02am:

I never mentioned armour but why would you try to thrust a spear through plate? It would be a daft thing to do. Obviously you would work to control the opponent's weapon and go for the weak points, face, armpits, inside elbow, palms, the seat and the backs of the legs. I guess that's one reason why the pollaxe was the preferred weapon against plate armour due to it's versatility to thrust, smash and cut with top,butt and back
spikes (bec de faucon/corbin) and an axe/hammer. if I remember correctly, jousting lances were relatively stiff but they were
designed to break on impact so as not to impart the full impact to the jouster being struck. This may have been a later development after the death of Henry the Second of France. Not much point to the sport if it's going to start bumping off the young nobility of Europe.

I guess it's all about context, isn't it?

I like you last statement, it is all about context. If you're thinking about late medieval plate at the height of it's combat use no spear would have a chance at getting through with an un-aimed thrust. Earlier versions of European plate armor weren't as robust. A quick "hail Mary" and a jab may have been enough to get through earlier plate armor if the spearman was lucky. Not that I'd expect much damage from that, but there would probably be a hole that the knight would have to work harder to protect during the rest of the battle. Stepping out of Europe, there are versions of plate-and-mail that are less well protected against thrusting weapons and were more suited to warding off saber blows, such as mirror armor. A spear thrust to plate-and-mail armor would, IMO, be a lot more effective. Although I would try and target the joints and any exposed mail if at all possible.

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #4 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 11:00am

snowcelt wrote on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 4:02am:

Ok! Thanks for that. You have a very interesting hobby too! I would be wary though about making quite blunt statements when writing on the net. Whenever we say, "This is how it was, that's it. Period", we close off any possibility for further discussion, not to mention coming off as kind of rude.

I made some comments about the possibility of a spear being flexible or of having some advantages. I didn't say a flexible spear would be always better than one with a rigid shaft. Remember that even an ash spear shaft will have some flex in it. At the end of the day, I was talking about flexible not floppy. A six foot shaft that has some flex along its entire length will have a lot less in the thirds, i.e. the top, middle and butt sections. So if you use your spear two-handed, the small amout of flex in any one of these sections would still be low enough to let you beat an incoming thrust aside, close the line and make a counterthrust. Also, as spears are used primarily to thrust, the energy is directed along the long axis not across it. So even a moderate amount of flex wouldn't make a huge difference in the thrust.

I never mentioned armour but why would you try to thrust a spear through plate? It would be a daft thing to do. Obviously you would work to control the opponent's weapon and go for the weak points, face, armpits, inside elbow, palms, the seat and the backs of the legs. I guess that's one reason why the pollaxe was the preferred weapon against plate armour due to it's versatility to thrust, smash and cut with top,butt and back

Plate is relevant in jousting. However, individual plates are much older - for instance, in China lamellar is very, very old. A flexible spear will just sort of move out of the way, a stiff spear will slide some, and might actually slide up into the neck, or into the upper arm, or possibly downward into the legs.
snowcelt wrote on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 4:02am:

If I remember correctly, jousting lances were relatively stiff but they were designed to break on impact so as not to impart the full impact to the jouster being struck. This may have been a later development after the death of Henry the Second of France. Not much point to the sport if it's going to start bumping off the young nobility of Europe.
Finally leg strikes using a hewing or even a thrusting spear are risky as they leave your head exposed. This is the same for sword also. IMO they are a bit of a one-trick pony, you might get away with it once, you won't get a second chance. One-handed thrusts with a long spear will allow incredible reach and they are very fast. However, to quote George Silver, "Thrusts may be set aside with te force of a child". He was referring to longsword but thrusts are easy enough to exchange or break.

Lances shatter all over the place - to the point where modern jousting often scores based on lance breakage. They aren't very flexible however. As for one handed thrusts, they are an important option, but only one of many you want. Incredible reach, incredible speed, and just asking for a counter attack if you try them on someone when they are in a particularly stable position. As for leg shots being a one trick pony, I disagree entirely. The nice thing about spears is that when striking for the legs the back of the spear can still be used to block - moreover, you can go from a leg shot to a head shot very quickly due to the wider grip. Compared to one handed swords in particular, spears also have a shallower angle, so a leg shot represents less of a commitment, which all combines to them being very important for spear combat. They are easier to perform, don't leave your head nearly as exposed as when using most any other weapon, and on top of all that significant damage that impedes leg movement makes your reach that much harder to deal with.

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snowcelt

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #5 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 11:09am

Hi Masi.

I agree. The plate and maille combo's effectiveness would I imagine also depend on other factors, like whether the maille was butted, welded or riveted and what was worn underneath, i.e. a padded linen gambeson, leather surcoat, etc. Viking period maille and early Norman may have been relatively effective too, otherwise why bother wearing it? One thing we haven't discussed yet is that the spear, although devastatingly effective may not necessarily have been a fight finisher. The spear could have been used to deliver an incapacitating blow before closing and administering the coup de grace with a sword, long knife or spike (depending on period).

I looked for some spear versus maille clips on YT. I found this on which had an interesting conclusion that riveted maille backed by leather and cotton somehow better absorbed the spear tip by the rings. Ok, it's a YT clip and not definitive but interesting.

http://youtu.be/VGu4bpb4eTI

Here's a link to the spear in Mike Loades' programme "Weapons that made Britain". Watch also the episode on armour.
http://youtu.be/LsSS5D7GCCM

Then there's this gentleman. he witters on a bit but his videos are fun. He also has some points to make about maille!

http://youtu.be/I-xtFXThEOc

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #6 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 12:58pm

snowcelt wrote on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 11:09am:

Hi Masi.

I agree. The plate and maille combo's effectiveness would I imagine also depend on other factors, like whether the maille was butted, welded or riveted and what was worn underneath, i.e. a padded linen gambeson, leather surcoat, etc. Viking period maille and early Norman may have been relatively effective too, otherwise why bother wearing it? One thing we haven't discussed yet is that the spear, although devastatingly effective may not necessarily have been a fight finisher. The spear could have been used to deliver an incapacitating blow before closing and administering the coup de grace with a sword, long knife or spike (depending on period).

Riveted mail is basically the only historical kind. Butted makes sense for modern recreation, as it looks close enough and drastically cuts down on work. However, given how much making the rings was a pain historically (decent wire creation methods are pretty modern really), not riveting was just lazy - particularly given that armor was very important, and needed to work well. However, not everyone would be wearing mail by any stretch of the imagination - and it wouldn't necessarily cover them. A byrnie doesn't cover the face or lower legs well, both of which are major target areas anyways. Lamellar without mail tends to poorly cover limbs in general, and even a full mail hauberk probably didn't have a full face helmet until 800 AD or so. So on and so forth.

Also, as for backing, felt is surprisingly good. Basically, felt isn't woven, it is pounded - which means that arrows, which actually can puncture mail at a few angles don't slip through the weave, but instead hit a pounded tangle with minimal energy and stop. The same thing applies to a lesser degree to other weapons, but the point is, felt works better than cotton. Mail is very good stuff, and tends to stop most everything short of crossbow bolts - though you might hurt someone through it if there is enough force in the blow.

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #7 - Dec 28^th, 2011 at 2:53pm

I noted, from experience, that Dark Age reenactors, for safety reasons, use spears two-handed. But I would argue, based on pictures, that in a large number of western historical contexts, spears, usually quite long (say 7 ft) were used one-handed and overarm, in conjunction with a shield. At least, that is how the Classical Greek hoplites (say 550 BC onwards) fought, the Roman auxiliary, the Viking, and Italian mediaeval militiamen

http://rovereto.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/collage-castello-avio.jpg

(h/t M. Easton, Schola Gladiatoria forum)

Presumably, the point is the killing thrust to the throat, or the disabling thrust to the thigh-- both wounds attested on vases and in literature.

Personally, I've found what was obviously a very widespread body technique surprisingly awkward and difficult-- spear gets knocked out of the way

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Jabames Interfector Viris Spurii Offline :3 Posts: 1868 Alaska Gender:	Re: On using spears for combat... Reply #8 - Dec 28^th, 2011 at 3:56pm I like underarm better than the ridiculous overarm method, probably used to inspire a sense of unity and cohesion but its very unwieldy to say the least http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOc9C-aPr4
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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #9 - Dec 28^th, 2011 at 6:38pm

One of the Zulu kings, Chaka or Cetswayo (spelling?) decided to find out whether the short or long spear was superior in combat. So he had an equal number of young warriors armed with each and had them battle it out. To the death. The short spears won. In one of those Zulu movies they show them, used underhand, much like the Roman gladius in conjunction with those long, narrow shields.

(Anyhow, that's the way I read it. I can't vouch for its historical accuracy.)

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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #10 - Dec 29^th, 2011 at 7:13am

Thearos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2011 at 2:53pm:

Presumably, the point is the killing thrust to the throat, or the disabling thrust to the thigh-- both wounds attested on vases and in literature.

Personally, I've found what was obviously a very widespread body technique surprisingly awkward and difficult-- spear gets knocked out of the way

I agree with anything Thearos wrote - we have examples of this habit from at least the VIth Century b.C. in my Region - and would like to add my supposition: perhaps the spear was used two-handed when it has to be used defensively, for example to stop a cavalry charge?
Greetings,
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: On using spears for combat... Reply #11 - Dec 29^th, 2011 at 8:23am Most kind, though I think you mean "everything", not "anything". In the meantime: http://flavianomega.tripod.com/spartan/spartanvscavalry.jpg -- one-handed underhand (held close to the spearbutt), against cav.
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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #12 - Dec 29^th, 2011 at 8:31am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-xtFXThEOc&feature=relmfu

Lindybeige arguing that you can't trust ancient Greek vases as a visual source. I disagree. Why would those buying the vases, in a society where lots of men have experience of fighting, accept a completely fanciful representation. ? In addition, the Chigi Olpe is very clear on this, and the whole point of the representation is that overarm is used consistently in formation.

http://www.archeoguida.it/005128_ceramica-greca-tabella-degli-stili.html

(scroll down)

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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #13 - Dec 29^th, 2011 at 9:34am

Yes, I meant "everything"

I usually tend to trust most of ancient resources, even if I found a pleasant hobby to spend some time trying either to decipher them or make different suppositions about their common interpretation.
For example, could it be that the overarm style depicted in vases and frescos represent the warriors wielding javelins in the very last moment before throwing them? It could be, even if I find your view more plausible for a number of reasons.

Meanwhile, I've found some pictures of the Picenian culture (I know I'm repetitive, but it's the only age that I've studied more deeply than I was usually asked for at the university - so I have plenty of pictures for share Cheesy

), and these shows both ways to use a spear:

overarm style adopted by warriors in this VIIth Century b.C. vase - note that each spearman had 2 spears: maybe because he had to thrown them, or maybe because he had a reserve one in case the first was no more of use (for example, he broke the first one)?;

"Attacking Mars", typical votive VIth Century bronze figures. They do not wield any weapon, but since they've got armour and helm we know they are Mars, and Mars always wield a spear. If they were naked (as the biggest one is), they would have been Hercules, and Hercules has an olive club. If they were females, and withouth the cuirass, they would have been Diana, the hunting goddess, usually armed with a bow or a spear as well.

Two VIth Century steles, the first one depicting a battle and, lower, a hunting moment. Most warriors in the battle are using a spear, one has an axe and another a sword. At least two spearmen are using their weapon with two hands. Note that some archaeologists have argued about these actually being spears, they tend to view them as another Greek weapons, which I don't remember - I personally disagree with this view. The second stele is missing the whole left half, so we can't understand who is the horseman fighting. His spear has been engraved with a softer touch, so it's hard to recognize, but it is to be found near the base of the horse's neck.

Hope it helps!
Greetings,
Mauro.

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Re: On using spears for combat...
Reply #14 - Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:04am

Thearos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2011 at 2:53pm:

I noted, from experience, that Dark Age reenactors, for safety reasons, use spears two-handed. But I would argue, based on pictures, that in a large number of western historical contexts, spears, usually quite long (say 7 ft) were used one-handed and overarm, in conjunction with a shield. At least, that is how the Classical Greek hoplites (say 550 BC onwards) fought, the Roman auxiliary, the Viking, and Italian mediaeval militiamen.

That's standard for formation fighting, and works quite well. However, it consistently doesn't show up in individual combat, because you are better off dropping the shield and grabbing the spear if you are fighting anything other than an archer, javelin thrower, slinger, or similar.

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