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World Standards of Slinging (Read 29351 times)
Morphy
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #75 - Nov 4th, 2011 at 12:23am
 
Thanks RM. Mostly just responding to this particular thread.
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Dan
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #76 - Nov 4th, 2011 at 8:51am
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 9:38am:
Dan wrote on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 8:29am:
I am pretty American so I'll probably just convert 10 20 and 30 meters to yards and use that as my measurement.  Wink

Also can someone referesh my memeory on the baeleric sling target dimensions.

1.2 meters square, 0.5 meter diana, and 1 meter clearance from the ground.


Or 3' 11.24" , round up to 4 feet. and 1' 7.68" round down (balances the prevous round up) to a foot and a diameter.

so 4' square, 1 1/2' circle. about a yard off the ground.  Wink

Cool I am going camping with a few friends tonight I'll see if we can make one of these (out of some thick canvas) and try it out.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #77 - Nov 4th, 2011 at 5:45pm
 
Probably easier to think of it as a 4 foot square with a circle of 20 inches in diameter, 3 feet off the ground.

(It's actually a whisker smaller but you'll never see the difference at  20m or 66 feet.)

Great idea to make a canvas target as you can hang it up from a tree branch or something similar and roll it up when not in use. You won't get that nice 'clangy' sound when you hit the Diana but the ease and convenience will be great. Perhaps if you make the Diana out carpet or some other fabric there may be a significant enough difference in the sound to enable you to tell which part of the target you've hit?
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #78 - Nov 6th, 2011 at 1:30pm
 
Yeah definitly a good idea to reienforce the diana, not only because of the sound differnce but also becuase I'll probably be hitting it almost every time, not.  Smiley

Seriously though I'll see if I can get the Canvas tonight and spray paint on a temporary diana and I'll just reinfoce it later. And then next week I'll ger more of a chance to sling (this week is the last week of Bow season), and almost the peak of the rut.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #79 - Nov 11th, 2011 at 11:27am
 
Not everyone, including myself, have access to raw materials and the ability to weave a fantasy slings.At old world while not having access to all Paracord, lawnmower cord conveyor belts, leather and other forms of new media in the world.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #80 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 5:03am
 
Mad Monkey

I've found proof that we can legitimately forgot all about the Balearic style limitation for competition :
It was only for aesthetics.

My proof is here : http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1121095277/3#3.
For those who don't know, Vicente is (was ?) an official judge for the Balearic competitions, so he kinda know what he's talking about.

As a collateral, we learn that the balearic style... is a made-up style and that the people using the sling everyday used quicker styles.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #81 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 9:22am
 
I read through the whole thread tonight and I'd like to voice some opinions and questions before it's too late. First and foremost, it was a very interesting and entertaining read! Everyone raised good points and it's hard to pick a side really.

1. C_A's opinions at the start of the thread made great points. Firstly, the competition needs to have standardization, we all know this. Creating a standard sling and standard ammunition is a great way of guiding newcomers to the sport as it gives them an instant baseline and knowledge of the type of sling which works and the ammunition which is relativity safe to learn and practice with. 

Many members are forgetting a key aspect of the discussion. Slinging as a sport and as a hobby is very different. There is a thin line which separates those who are attracted to the sport and those who truly love the sling. Those who are attracted to the sport may love the competition, the chance to cement their name into a the early history of a new sport or just the feeling of winning. That's the case where they want to know what sling works, what style to use and what ammunition is the best. They want the fastest and easiest method of getting good in the least amount of time possible. They might not want to experiment, they might not have the time, they might just want to buy something that's proven to work and they will buy it. They want a quick and easy entry to the sport.

This is why so many newcomers go straight to Aussie for a sling. They don't have the instant passion and love to spend hours and hours crafting their own slings. It doesn't mean they aren't interested. It means they don't have the strong enough interest (yet  Wink) to fuel research and spend time creating their own slings. Without Aussie's slings, how many potential slinger's would be lost because their interest would have died long before they spend hours making a sling? I can definitely say I would not still be here if Aussie hadn't offered to send me a free sling. My early attempts were useless and I was close to giving up. That one gesture of guidance was the difference between me existing on this forum and me posting videos of slinging on Youtube. Chances are there's many who just gave up because they couldn't buy a sling or there weren't any guidelines teaching them which techniques to use, which sling to use, what distances and where they can take their hobby. How many possible contributions to the sport could we have so easily lost over the years because of a lack of clear cut guidance?

That's where the standardization of the sling types, sling styles, lengths, targets, distances and ammunition needs to be decided for them to enable them to continue their interest. It's an easy and fast method of becoming involved in the sport where all the knowledge is provided for them and all the materials. They want the fastest route to enter the sport, and they don't want to spend the time making their own slings or spending countless hours reading forums learning about different slings and lengths and ammunition and styles and so forth.

On the other side of the spectrum, there's us. The slinging enthusiasts. We want to experiment with different lengths, different styles, different ammunition, different everything! We love the sling, we don't need a competition to fuel our thirst for knowledge or drive our passion to make our own handmade slings we pour our time into. We don't need an organization to tell us how to sling and what sling to use. We discover that ourselves. We are emotionally attached to our hobby and we want to do things our way with our personally preferred slinging attributes and factors (eg. preferred lengths, ammunition etc). I believe most members are suggesting the conditions of slinging as a sport from this view. We don't want to limited by our hobby, we don't want to be told we can't use that length, we can't use that ammunition and we can't do this and that. However, not everyone is going to like us.

That's what I feel C_A is pushing. An entry point and a method is the best way to learn and gain knowledge, especially for those who don't have a strong interest at first. That small interest can turn into a passion so easily, however, a small interest can just so easily be lost. A method and entry point aids the discovery of the sling and supports interest until it can become a passion.

I'll put it this way - We put our children in school classes to learn essential knowledge through programs and curriculum's. We don't place them in a huge library of books, computers and newspapers and expect them to learn their timetables and world history by themselves.  ---- Directing potential slinger's to a sport without guidelines and pathways is like placing them in a library and expecting them to learn everything by themselves. Unless they don't have a strong interest, they are going to be filtered out and the small interest lost. Then we are left asking ourselves what could have been. There needs to be a method of guiding newcomers through the sport and transforming a small interest into a passion. People interested in the sport alone don't have a great interest, however, it can utilized and developed or it can be lost.

In conclusion, I think the best solution is to follow a standardized competition to attract and develop the interests of newcomers who don't share the passion for the sling as us members do. However, in saying this, I would not like to compete in such a competition which is standardized for the same reason as most of the members who contributed to the forum. I don't need the standardization to teach me how to use a sling, what styles to use and what slings to make. So I believe the open category also needs to be made to enable the passionate slingers to use whatever materials they want and hit the targets any way they want with whatever they want. Because at the end of the day, a hit is a hit.

Thanks for reading.

Nick.

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Camo-sling
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #82 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 9:38am
 
Oh yes, my post goes on...

2. I like the idea of having a smaller inner circle within the middle of the Balearic target. It makes sense, it's the pinnacle of possible accuracy within the target and it should be worth more points.

3. Why not extend another category of accuracy up to at least 60 meters or even above. It's planning for the future - if 45 meters becomes easier with the intake of better slinging benchmarks. It is certainly possible to hit the Balearic target at these distances. I bet there are a few slingers on the website who are able to hit targets at this distance, let alone shepherds in unreachable locations.

4. I think I read each category of distance contains only 3 shots. It's very possible to fluke those shots with such a small sample size. Why isn't the number of shots merely 10 for each category? I think it's a better indicator of accuracy in terms of consistency and I can definitely see it making a competition more tense and rely on better skills.

5. I am fond of the idea of having equal ammunition such as the squash balls or clay ammo, at least in the standardized aspect of the sport. It's easier to control and easier to tune in accuracy than using rocks. Something like tennis balls are safer for newcomers and ensure each person in the competition hasn't got an advantage over the next in terms of ammunition. For a free category, I wouldn't care, to each their own.

6. So we've got a lot of go to these ideas, so what now? Do we put it in our slinging ebook guide? On the website? Do we form our own slinging competition organization? The federation or what? I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this the most.  
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #83 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 10:27am
 
Quote:
As a collateral, we learn that the balearic style... is a made-up style and that the people using the sling everyday used quicker styles.


Something I've been saying for a few years.

Although I think the balearic competition style was adopted simply to make the competition harder.

And inner circle on the diana ?

Well you'd need to cut out a hole and line it with netting. That way there'd be no doubt where you hit and you wouldn't have to worry about the shot crossing an imaginary line. You get it in the net - it's gone through the hole. No doubts.

But it's completely unnecessary - from 30 metres the centre of a balearic target is a bloody hard target.  

Although I was pleasanrlt surprised on monday. Hadn't really done any slinging for the last couple of months. As it's dark when I walk the dog and I've been really busy elsewhere.

Pete came down for the hillfort target testing.
Have to admit I was pleasantly surprised with how little I was missing the target.
Tried a couple of styles and sling lenghts but ended up defaulting to fig 8 and my well used cap paul original sling.

I figure were I to actually practice regularly with a balearic target I'd definitely be hitting it a lot more than I missed at all distances.
Like everything it's down to practice, practice and then practice a bit more Smiley

However if I had to ue a balearic sidearm or any multi windup slinging style -  my accuracy would drop dramatically.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #84 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 8:50pm
 
C_A and Camo make some very good points, but I still feel that such an action would only hurt slinging efforts more than it would help.

Keep in mind that it's the arbitrary restrictions that made the Balearic ruleset so controversial outside of the Balearic isles in the first place. Otherwise we probably would've just adopted it instead of continually trying to reinvent the wheel. (For example, I prefer synthetic materials in my workhorse slings, and I prefer two rotations or less when I throw with them. Both are big no-no's in the Balearic ruleset.)

I'll compare my reluctance for a rigidly-micro-managed system to modern fencing, and it's drawbacks.
Sure, In the beginning it's fairly easy for newbies to get in the groove. However, it's that very same iron fist of regulations--many of which are just inappropriately silly for a martial art--that result in either constantly complaining/annoyed fencers, or fencers simply abandoning it all-together for more organic sword-based martial arts. (It was HEMA, in my case.)

Even if you ignore the logistical complications of supplying each and every slinger with identical gear, there's still the human aspect. You can standardize every little aspect, but people aren't identical. What works for one person will only serve to handicap another. A meter-long sling used in a figure-8 is going to behave differently for a 5' tall guy than it will for a 6' 5" guy. Sure, most may be able to get by... but if you give a novice an ill-matched sling and a make him use a style he doesn't really have an affinity towards, he'll do one of two things:

  *Either he'll realize the restrictions the system is putting on him and be unable to do anything about it...
  *He'll blame it on himself, ultimately convinced that he's "not gifted" and ending up quitting. (This is a very commonly-seen mindset, btw.)

Granted, if "set loose in the library", a beginner can quickly become confused and lost in tiny details from so many different conflicting sources. That just means we need an easy-grasped introduction to the sport for beginners. Something like a "Slinger's Guide" in book form... Gee, If only we had one of those: that would solve most of the problems novices' have! I wish a book like that existed! Wink

When you boil it down all you really need to know to get started is a sling about the length of their own arm, and some pointers on where to begin. (Slinger's Guide, YouTube videos, "where to begin" articles/forum threads, etc.) After that, they can experiment and dial in their preferences however they want. It's really not that complicated, and we already have tons of resources nowadays that keep readdressing this. No need to get hung up on it. Wink



Anyways, do I think we should have an easily-accessible method for newbies? Yes! Do I think a tightly-controlled standard that everyone must conform to will solve this? Heck no. Do I think no rules whatsoever is necessary? Definitely not.
It's all about moderation: having everything regulated to the point that people are quickly starting to suffer from suffocating restrictions is just as bad as total anarchy.

As for the "lack of access to a good sling" issue...
I'm pretty sure the biggest reason for most newbies not taking advantage of the Aussie pouch deal is because they simply don't know about it. Not because existing resources are non-existent, but because they aren't aware of all of the goodies potentially available to them! The Aussie pouch thread may be a sticky in one of the sub-forums, but I've known several people who didn't even know there was a forum on the website to begin with. Tongue
If we made sure to tell newbies about it, then they'd likely pounce on the offer. (I usually go a step further and carry a few pouches in my backpack and just hand them out when someone's interested)

What I think we should do to make it easier on beginners is have an easily-accessible and well-publicized "basic model" or two for beginners. Then you could simply keep a stock of them on-hand to loan out/give away at slinging clubs and events. Aussie pouches and seatbelt slings would fill this need beautifully. Then if they want to upgrade after a certain time, then they can do so at their own leisure. That way everyone wins: the existing slingers/slinging cultures won't be completely alienated, and the newbies will be able to join into the fray rather quickly. Smiley




[The part below is more casual preferences rather than stuff that I absolutely hate.]
However, I am all for a standardized range, and to a degree, ammo. (Lead out-distances all other ammo, and can potentially poison the local environment.) For official events/tournaments, I'd recommend either carefully-chosen river rock, concrete, or clay as a decent-enough compromise between ease of access and manufacture while maintaining a "professional" appearance. (Mortar, concrete, and clay are fairly easily-attainable in areas without decent rocks)

It might be a good idea to make it only concrete/mortar/clay/stone initially, and then introduce a metal ammo division/event if demand is big enough. (In a way, like what baseball has going on with wood vs. metal bats)

Honestly, I have no problem if someone likes using some ball from another sport as their preferred practice ammo, but using rubber balls as the standard ammo for an international slinging competition would be like sticking suction cups on the ends of arrows in a high-level competition, or using a Red Rider bb gun for an olympic biathalon. Fair enough if it's only beginners in a short-distance event, but otherwise it looks silly if everyone is using them. Tongue
As for the "safety of modified rubber balls" aspect: if a rubber ball is dense enough to sling accurately over 25-40 meters, it's not going to be much safer than just getting hit with a rock/concrete glande in the first place. Tongue


I like the idea of just using the Balearic target with some kind of smaller sub target added to the center of the diana. The combo would work really well.
I originally voted 15, 25, 35, but after some more thought, I like the 10, 20, 30 meter classes better for simplicity's sake. And it should definitely be meters, not yards. I may be American, but I still think it's retarded and inconsiderate to continue being too stubborn, lazy, and short-sighted to adopt the metric system like the rest of the world. A short-term headache in exchange for a measurement system that will permanently ensure that cross-measurement confusion is a thing of the past? Heck yeah!

================================



TL; DR Version:
No restrictions for slings or their materials. (Maybe a long and short sling division at most.)
No restrictions on slinging technique.
Yes to the 10,20,30 meter distances.
Yes to the Balearic target with an additional inner "diana" of sorts.
Stone/concrete/clay ammo preferred. (Maybe metal later on, if demand calls for it)
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #85 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:01pm
 
I would say two divisions- "wovens" and "nonwovens". Woven slings are like a balaric, rockman, etc. the woven/braided slings.
then there are the "nonwovens"- leather and some material for the cords. your choice on material, but it has to be approved- like paracord, etc(one reason I am trading for paracord Cheesy) as for distance, I say 15, 25, 35. Realisticly, I DID NOT read this whole thread, just thr first page.
Wovens are the unique slings, the 'unorthadox"- thats where we can experiment. the "non-wovens" are the workhorses. good, durable, slings that are used for target. put some limits on size, e.g between 70 inches and 20 inches, I think thats reasonable. and put a limit on weight and projectile material- e.g "natural"(stones, lumps of dirt and ice) and "artificial"-Stuff shaped by us.
and within have 2 weights- Heavy- 5 oz and above, upper limit of 10 oz(I am not happy here, but hey I am probably the only one who slings 16 oz ammo) and light, like 1-4.9 oz.
This should work, encouraging experimentation and messing around, but still helping standardizing so it can be recognized. just like every tennis player has a different racket, every slinger uses a slightly different sling.
-Squirrel
EDIT- Oh God, did not realize how much I rambeled, sorry for the messy post here Tongue
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #86 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:04pm
 
Also, I would include this in my post, but I think it would not be noticed- Some, actually MANY slingers do not have a 50 yard safe space to sling in. you want at least 2 meters behind target and 2 behind you, if not more, so a 45 meter range is simply impractical for many of us. Lightslinger mentioned this a while ago.
Thanks for patience,
-Squirrel
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #87 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:53pm
 
You just reminded me of a good point I completely forgot to touch upon in my last post: a maximum sling-length limit Wink
Like 1.3 - 1.5 meters and under, or something
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #88 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:29pm
 
squirrelslinger wrote on Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:04pm:
Some, actually MANY slingers do not have a 50 yard safe space to sling in. you want at least 2 meters behind target and 2 behind you, if not more, so a 45 meter range is simply impractical for many of us.

In this one context, this in a false problem.

What we discuss here is the sport aspects of the slinging development.
You can play catch with your friends in your garden (even with your sling) but you need a special environment to train a baseball team (and they won't allow you to bring out your sling...)

If you are serious about making a sport out of this, then you will find some space to train even for the longer distances Smiley
If you're a marathonian, you don't run in circle in your backyard, do you ? Same with slinging while training for competition with such a range.

If i remember what I read correctly (it's currently 1 and half in the morning on a friday evening after a tiring week, my brain is quite fried Roll Eyes) we almost all agree that less regulation is good, that the newbies will want something easy to start with and veterans want something complicated. And that 2 slingers won't ever agree, even on the color of Gengis Khan's white horse...

So far, concerning the target we have balearic sized target, at 3 fixed distance.
If you hit the diana 50 times out of 50 shots, you can always double this distance, so it's also cutting drosophilas' butt hair in 4 to nitpick about a couple meters more or less, so let's go with 15 - 30 - 45 for a starter. This is the distances that get the most votes and we can always change that once we have proof that's not enough/too much.

Concerning standardisation, sorry C_A, I'm pretty sure you're right about easing the newcomer's choice by telling them "this is standard material" but I think it's club management's duty to issue "safety slings and ammo" for beginner.

If we want to stress out security, we can say "each competition has a "beginner" class, for those with less than 3 competitions (or at club coach discretion). Beginner will have to used safety ammo such as [insert standard industrialised already rather easily obtainable ammo] and will be allowed to shot from nearer" or whatever in the same style.

If people want to keep the safety belt and paracord sling (I believed that will be the most worldwide standard you can go) all along their slinging competitive carreer, it should not be a problem. Neither if they want to use a full balearic or a knitted one or a shoe... Well, maybe if they want to use a shoe, they may be set apart (and not having their limbs taken apart, however tempting it sounds).

We can have a "weapon check" before competiting, but that's the organisators' choice.

Concerning the more dangerous ammo, I must confess that I don't know out of : the first to make something that can be easily exported and mass produced will probably be the one who's right. How many of you would be Ok for doing cement or clay shots by hundreds or sorting out the same numbers of rocks for a week-end long competition ?
No one will ever agree one the optimal weight of "serious and dangerous" shots, so I'm afraid it will boil down to "each slinger take his own ammo", and again the security check (no cracks, no visible defaults etc, etc...). Obviously, if one bring 2kg shots, he may have to pay for property damages Tongue

For the library metaphor... for now, wwe only have the library, we do'nt even have children nor teacher nor teaching programs Tongue
And that's what we need.

Right now, my provate life is quite complicated so I did nothing for my slinging club for almost one year (and this upset me) but I now what I need and I will be working on it : more advertisement and something to aim to motivate newcomers (as a club, I already have my slinging target).

Well, I feel like I'm starting to rant in circle and being disagreable, so I will let myself cool down and go to sleep.


Last rant :
We need to try and keep what's working, not to argue for the sake of argueing.
So go find students and make them sling their arms out ! ^^

Finished at 2h30 ^^
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #89 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:50pm
 
LOL, Caldou. I personally am not up to trying to find a reasonably safe 150 foot clear field just for competition. Some people, I can name them, but wont, live in the city and cannot really go sling. It is simply not safe. I have the advantage of not living inner city. Caldou, I get where you are comeing from, but many of us sling becuase its cheap and WE DONT NEED SOME SPECIAL PLACE! Actually I think if i can just get 60 yards of clear space Ill be ok, but at the cost of someone's head probably. Its not my choice. I will just stick with shorter distances.
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
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