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World Standards of Slinging (Read 30165 times)
Masiakasaurus
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #15 - Oct 13th, 2011 at 1:45pm
 
We should have 2 recognizable categories of slinging, in that case. Sporting and Historical.

For sport, split pouch slings should be 4 to 5 oz. vegetable tanned leather with straps that cross each other, and I suggest using the same dimensions as Aussie's conveyor belt sling pouches. He's already done the work for us. I do suggest reinforcing the pouch with metal grommets where the cords attach to the pouch, to prevent the sling from ripping during competition. Length of the sling should be limited to 1.2 meters folded in half. I don't really see any point in limiting how the sling cords are attached to the pouch or the material they should be made of, but paracord is pretty convenient and should be in the running if others want to regulate cord material. Use the FBTF target dimension (1.2 meters square with 0.5 meter bullseye) and have set distances of 10, 20, and 30 meters.

For Historical, just use the FBTF rules and limit the slings to being made of natural materials, also with a 1.2 meter maximum length.

This is basically the same set-up as sport vs. renaissance fencing.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #16 - Oct 13th, 2011 at 9:36pm
 
  Masiakasarus,

   Huh?
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #17 - Oct 14th, 2011 at 12:14am
 
  I've often said that slinging reminds me of bowling in many ways.
   It's all about shooting at a target utilizing perfect form, with the least little variance causing your accuracy to fall into the hopper.  Bowling is an internationally sanctioned, very popular sport.  Yet it allows for much variation in styles and equipment.  Only the target and the distance are standard.
   Let's start with the ball.  I can weigh anywhere from sixteen down to, I believe, six pounds.  The only reason the range isn't wider is the ball return equipment couldn't handle it.  I can be made of a number of different materials and combinations of materials, from rock hard plastic balls that slip slide down the lane and don't hook much at all to highly reactive surface balls that dig in right away.  The core varies greatly.  Popular now is the block core which keeps the ball from deflecting much when it hits the pins.  You can get balls with solid cores if you prefer.  You can have your ball drilled any number of ways.  Most prefer full fingertip, but there's also semi-fingertip and conventional (ugh) grip.  There's even a five fingered ball.  I am allowed to throw the ball using any number of styles.  I can throw a hook, back up, or straight ball.  I can throw it without putting my thumb in the hole or I can even hurl it using two hands if I wish. 
   So a popular internationally sanctioned sport doesn't have to have a lot of restrictive, stifling rules.  I'm 6'4" with very long arms. It makes no more sense for me to use the same length sling in competition against someone 4'9" than it does for me to use a ten pound ball when bowling against a 5'2" woman or for her to use a sixteen pound ball. 
    By limiting what materials can be used for slings and ammo you're completely stifling any advancement in the technology of the sport.  What wins tournaments should be what becomes the standard, as it is in bowling.   
    Do we really want to emulate the Balearic slingers?  Look at how wildly popular that is... not.   By omitting certain styles, sling lengths, types of ammo, sling materials, etc.. we will be omitting prospective slingers.  I would personally have no interest what so ever in a format with a lot of tight rules doing away with anything that is innovative about the sport.
   I say set up a poll and put it to a vote!
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #18 - Oct 14th, 2011 at 12:27am
 
i agree with ratman, there's no point in regulating certain areas of it. although it looks good to be all dressed the same using similar slings slinging the same way like some highly drilled squad of elite slingers, think of the reality. everything tends to look better on the parade ground and on paper, but in reality it's nothing more than restriction after restriction.

i would not mind having divisions set up for different target distances and objectives- one division might be or a Balearic target at 30 yards, and another might be for distance, number of stones up in the air at one time (speed shooting) etc.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #19 - Oct 14th, 2011 at 7:44am
 
I think the only hope of getting this off the ground is to make it fun and simple.
Who will be participating?
An extremely wide variety of people, with wide variety of resources, (slings and ammo).
Golf balls, tennis balls, cast lead glands, river rock, sand filled leather bags, etc., if restricted to any one item, it will alienate many.
Sling length and contruction will also vary widely and cannot be standardized at this level.
The only controllable variable is target and distance, to get maximum participation.
This is how systems evolve and improve is thru competition, whatever works will be copied and improved upon.
Too much control will be the reason for lack of particpation.
Good luck,
Oscar
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #20 - Oct 14th, 2011 at 7:55am
 
I think we should be careful to draw a distinction between things which look standardized, simply because everyone chooses to use the same thing, and things which actually are standardized by rules. The rules governing bats in cricket, for example, are surprisingly loose -- which you'd never know if you looked at a 'normal' set of bats for a team (they look nigh-on identical).

I went and looked up the equivalent rules for archery, regulated by FITA, as used for the Olympics and World Championships. They are surprisingly 'open' as well. Here are the sections governing bows and arrows for 'indoor target', 'outdoor target' and 'field' archery.

Note that:

1.) I've only included the rules for 'recurve' and 'normal' bows here in order to save space; there are also rules permitting compound bows (in both target and field archery) and longbows (in field archery). That is: the set of allowed bows is even larger than is implied here.

2.) There are more rules than printed here, but they nearly all govern things like stabilizers, sights, and finger protection. 99% of the rules that govern the bow and arrows themselves are below.

3.) Many of the rules are similar or the same between disciplines.

4.) While the regulations frequently put limits on the size of items allowed, they very rarely mention, let alone govern, the use of specific materials.

Quote:
Outdoor Target Archery
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20B...

Bow

7.3.1.1 A bow of any type provided it subscribes to the accepted principle and meaning of the word bow as used in target archery, that is, an instrument consisting of a handle (grip), riser (no shoot-through type) and 2 flexible limbs each ending in a tip with a string nock. The bow is braced for use by a single string attached directly between the 2 string nocks, and in operation is held in 1 hand by its handle (grip) while the fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string.

7.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers and trademarks located on the inside of the upper and lower limb are permitted.

7.3.1.1.2 Risers including a brace are permitted provided the brace does not consistently touch the athlete’s hand or wrist.

7.3.2.1 The bow will be of a simple design, either a take-apart type (with wooden or metal riser) or of one-piece construction. In both types of bow the limbs will be of
wooden and/or fibreglass construction.

Arrows

7.3.1.7 Arrows of any type may be used provided they subscribe to the accepted principle and meaning of the word arrow as used in target archery, and that the arrows do not cause undue damage to target faces or butts.

7.3.1.7.1 An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point) nock, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts will not exceed 9.3mm, the heads (points) for these arrows may
have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. All arrows of every athlete must be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used in any end shall be identical and will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.


Quote:
Indoor Target Archery
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20B...

Bow

8.3.1.1 A bow of any type provided it subscribes to the accepted principle and meaning of the word bow as used in target archery, that is, an instrument consisting of a handle (grip), riser (no shoot-through type) and 2 flexible limbs each ending in a tip with a string nock. The bow is braced for use by a single string attached directly between the 2 string nocks, and in operation is held in 1 hand by its handle (grip) while the fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string.

8.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers and trademarks located on the inside of the upper and lower limb are permitted.

8.3.1.1.2 Risers including a brace are permitted provided the brace does not consistently touch the athlete’s hand or wrist.

Arrows

8.3.1.7 Arrows of any type may be used provided they subscribe to the accepted principle and meaning of the word arrow as used in target archery, and that the arrows do not cause undue damage to target faces or butts.

8.3.1.7.1 An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point) nock, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts will not exceed 9.3mm; the heads (points) for these arrows may
have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. All arrows of every athlete must be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used at any end shall be identical and will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.


Quote:
Field Archery
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20B...

Bow

9.3.1.1 A bow of any type provided it subscribes to the accepted principle and meaning of the word ‘bow’ as used in target archery, that is, an instrument consisting of a handle (grip), riser (no shoot-through types are permitted) and 2 flexible limbs each ending in a tip with a string nock. The bow is braced for use by a single string attached directly between the 2 string nocks, and in operation is held in 1 hand by its handle (grip) while the fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string.

9.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers, and trademarks located on the inside of the upper and lower limb are permitted.

9.3.1.1.2 Recurve: Risers including a brace are permitted provided the brace does not consistently touch the athlete’s hand or wrist.

Arrows

9.3.7.1 Arrows of any type may be used provided they subscribe to the accepted principle and meaning of the word ‘arrow’ as used in target archery, and that such arrows do not cause undue damage to target faces or buttresses.

9.3.7.1.1 The maximum diameter of an arrow shaft will not exceed 9.3mm, the point for these arrows may have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point), nock,
fletching and, if desired, cresting. All arrows of every athlete will be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used in any one end shall be identical and will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.


Surprisingly open, no?
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #21 - Oct 15th, 2011 at 11:23am
 
first off, thanks Masiaka for the nod.

i have to agree with Whipartist and Ratman, among others. putting restrictions on sling types and styles and ammo is just silly. for my other favorite primitive weapon, the atlatl, we've had a world wide competition in place for decades called the ISAC which stands for International Standard Accuracy Competition. it involves a standardized target at two set distances and a set of rules governing conduct and scoring and that's it. any and all variations of equipment are allowed. the great thing about ISAC's is that it can be performed by anyone anywhere simply by purchasing or crafting an ISAC target.

i felt it was such a good model that i came up with a version for slinging. it utilized plastic containers as targets (and not the paper atlatl targets as Curious_Aardvark stated above. in fact, the atlatl ISAC target and the Baeleric sling target are very similar to each other in size and form where my ISAC for sling are not)  because i felt these were 1. easy to obtain by anyone. 2. were highly mobile and durable. and 3. because they represented better than the Baeleric target what slinging was meant for i.e hitting small ground based targets such as animals.

i'm not opposed to another format, even the Baeleric model, but i would be highly opposed to anything that limited the sling type, style, or ammo. a standard target, set distances, format and rules, and scoring are all that is needed i believe.

Chris

p.s. i tried to do a search for that old ISAC for slinging thread and couldn't find it. anyone got it?
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Rat Man
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #22 - Oct 16th, 2011 at 3:42pm
 
I'd like to add one thing that I forgot to my previous post.  There are nine different oil patterns (ways to place oil on the lane) accepted on the professional bowlers tour.
http://www.pba.com/OilPatterns/
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #23 - Oct 17th, 2011 at 7:52am
 
lots of good points - and all from the point of view of practicing slingers.

And this is not necessarily a good thing because we know what kind of slings and ammo we all like and prefer.

From the point of view of a complete new comer, attending an unlimited sling & ammo competition would be completely bewildering.
Every competitor would tell them to make buy or use completely different ammo and slings.
They'd be told that longer is better and that shorter is better, that natural cords are better than manmade and that manmade is better than natural.
They'd be told that heavy ammo is better than light, and that lighter ammo is better than heavy. That sperical rocks are best and that ovoid rocks are best.
That fig 8 is dangerous and useless (jaegoor Wink )and that helicopter is inaccurate and rubbish (me  Wink )
They'd be told that you should only use lethal ammo and that non-lethal ammo is best.
That split pouches rock and that solid pouches suck, and that spilt spouches suck and that solid pouches rule.
In short: a completely bewildering and contradictory mass of information that is going to do nothing but confuse and dissuade someone from having a go.

Yes it might be easier for existing slingers - and I feel I'm just banging my head against a brick wall here - but the main purpose of a standardised slinging competition  is TO ATTRACT NEW PEOPLE TO THE SPORT (when we have an actual sport, that is) and to creat an actual sport that can be practiced worldwide with the same set of easy to make kit.

If they can troll, up watch a bunch of people slinging the same ammo with similiar looking slings, which they will be able to purchase or be given. it is massively more likely that they will have a go or even join a club or league.
Sure everyone they meet will tell them that different techniques are best. But that's all they'll have to consider.
Everything else will make sense.

Once they can sling, THEN is the time to start exploring the variety, history and usages of slings.

And paleo, slings were not exclusively or even mainly, meant for killing small animals.
They have been used for war against people, hunting large animals, herding animals, hunting birds etc

I'll repeat a sling is A TOOL. How it is used is up the individual using it.

As far as pouches go.
Look, aussie created a versatile, durable, easy to replicate, weather proof,  multi usage sling pouch that has been used and tested all over the world for over 3 years.
It is the ONLY such pouch in existence.
Used conveyor belt material can be had - I suspect for free - simply by contacting local companies and asking.

I just do not see any point in reinventing the wheel.

Standardised ammunition makes it easier to practice, gives your slinging consistent results and is going to make more sense and be more attractive to the newcomer.

How hard can it be to accept that we standardise three things: pouch, ammo, target ? (unbelievably hard from where I'm sitting lol)
That is essentially all we need to do to create a sport that is accessible to non-slingers and existing slingers in equal measure.

With the same three pieces of equipment - you can create lots of different competition types and scoring systems. But as long as everyone used the same pouches, targets and ammo - any scoring system can be used worldwide.

K.I.S
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #24 - Oct 18th, 2011 at 12:09am
 
  I believe that we're all in agreement that a standard target and standard distances make sense.  Why not have two classes.  Do one your way, with a standard pouch and ammo and run it side by side with an unlimited class like some of us have suggested, where just the target and distances are standard.   The standardized class would be less confusing to and easier for beginner slingers.  The unlimited class might be more fun and interesting for more experienced slingers.  I'd probably try my luck in both classes.
   
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #25 - Oct 18th, 2011 at 2:34am
 
not a bad compromise, Ratman. i'd go along with that if it was the consensus, but i would like to address one of C_A's points. he states that newcomers would be cofused about what to use and would be told many different things by every individual. possibly. but i think they would recieve the same answers that most newbies get here which is "experiment for yourself and find what works for you". i believe that if they're interested enough in slinging then they'll embark on the same journey the rest of us have taken and figure it out for themselves, with some suggestions along the way from those in the know of course.

i can almost garauntee you one thing. that if given the choice between an open class (where you can use what you want, how you want) and a standardized class (where you're required to use gear or ammo you might not like) then the line for latter will be much shorter. i'm just saying.



oh, and C_A, i din't say 'hunting', i said 'hitting' small animals by which i meant human sized and down. anyways that wasn't even my point. the three targets i used encompassed one about the size of a mans torso down to one about the size of a modest bird. i just  felt that was a pretty good representation of the type of skill we should try and acheive as slingers, much more so than the barn door like target that the Baelerics use.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #26 - Oct 19th, 2011 at 7:40am
 
actually the main problem with your targets paleo is that gallon plastic milk containers are different shapes and sizes the world over. Also us gallons are 1/3 smaller than uk gallons.
It is - unfortunately not a global standard. And yes I checked the ones we get in england. Milk IS sold in 3.5 litre containers (us gallon) but they are not the same shape as the us ones.
They are taller, flatter and wider  in profile than the squarer ones you get in the states.

I know that the vast majority of americans apply the word 'world' solely to the states.
And given that 90% ofamericans will never hold apassport or travel beyond the us borders - it's easy to understand why this happens.

But slinging is a world wide sport and if we want to create a world wide competition system - then all you yanks need to start thinking global not local.   

A measured and simple to construct target like the balearic one makes more sense.

And yes there would be a line at the open class - but once again you're completely missing the point - to be honest if you haven't grasped the simplicity of it by now - I don't think most of you will ever get it.

People who have never slung before will go for the standard class. Because it takes the confusion and plethora of choices out of the game. and reduces the sport to skill with standard equipment and rules out the chance that different slings and ammo might give you a better or worse chance.
People setting up clubs can use the standard class without worrying wbout sling, ammo or target types.
Setting up a club or local competition would be quick, easy and uncomplicated.

Given the complete lack of any such clubs or competitions (outside of spain) it's fairly obvious that if you put 2 slingers in a room and tell them to have acompetition, they'll both immediately come up with different ideas and standards.
And that's why a universal system is needed. IT's not for existing experienced and opionated slingers - IT'S FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

And I think I'm probably done in this discussion. I can't think of any simpler or easier or more common sense ways to explain what is blindingly obvious. 
It'll make more sense for me to just go ahead and start a system off than spend all my time arguing with people who can't see the point of it.
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #27 - Oct 19th, 2011 at 9:27am
 
As for the target why not use something made of micarta. It is known worldwide(at least in the Americas and Europe). What do you think of target with cross section like that one?(ok maybe not with that many layers...)
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #28 - Oct 19th, 2011 at 12:30pm
 
come on, C_A, no need to insult us yanks. i fully realize we're trying to make this global (and i have traveled extensively, by the way) so let's use metric measures. 20l, 4l and 1l. in my original post i even think i suggested that. the exact sizes of the targets are irrelevant. the important thing is that plastic containers are widely AVAILABLE. they are easy to obtain by virtually everyone world wide. i don't think the same can be said for the Baeleric target. the other benefits are mobility, durability, and replacability. also, no construction is needed.  so, if your argument for standardization is to encourage the most begginers into the sport then i think this is a better model, but we can agree to disagree forever on that point.

as to the standardization of slings and ammo i would still have to say that i'm fully against it. i think it flies in the face of what slinging is all about. i personally quit competitive archery years ago for this very reason. some people, mostly those just starting out, may be attracted to uniform equipment like you say, but i'm betting that the majority of us out there would rail about being told what we can and cannot use. there is also the problem of how these newcomers are going to obtain these standardized slings and ammo? are they expected to buy them or make them themselves? not everyone is capable of buying or crafting uniform ammo, but just about anyone can pick a rock up off the ground. don't have rocks where you are? no problem, just use whatever is at hand. the point being that if you limit what you can use, you automatically limit the number of people that can be involved. i just think you'll get more folks into competitive slinging if they're allowed to sling how and with what they want.

now, if you would consider a compromise, say a range of sling lengths and a range of ammo weights, then that is something i feel would be fair and more in the spirit of our sport and something i would consider participating in. what do you think?
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Re: World Standards of Slinging
Reply #29 - Oct 19th, 2011 at 12:59pm
 
Genuinely No insult intended. Just saying how it is for the vast majority of americans. They never travel abroad - because they don't need to.
And again I'm not talking about the tiny number of people who already sling - I'd like to try and reach the humoungous number who have never even heard of a sling.

Right, sling lengths - no problem with different ones. but a min and max length just makes sense. cord type - again not important.

pouches - can  be made and supplied by the organisation - whatever it turns out to be. Or made from a supplied spec and cutting template
And with them standardised if you travel to a different area or country, you'll still be using the same kit. Which makes life much easier if you haven't got a sling already.

targets likewise. and the size and shape - again needs to be standardised.

I'll be working out a design kit in the near future.
think I've got it down to 6 bits of wood, four bolts and either a metal disc or a plastic disc and a few rubber washers, glue and a few wood screws. A saw, a drill and screwdriver and pliers will be the only tools needed.

The 'organisation' can supply everything except the wood and disc as a kit with full instructions.

Haven't tested the sand filled squash balls yet. but again, they can easily be made onsite by anyone. squash is played worldwide. and squash balls wear out regularly. So talking to the local squash league or club  and paying a few pence for worn out balls should be doable.
I've ruled out golf balls for 3 reasons.
1) they richochet like bastards. very dangerous.
2) they are slightly larger and lighter as well as being less dense than the sand filled squash balls.
3) sand filled squash balls do not bounce back. feel ideal in the hand, are very durable and extremely easy to make.

I've also worked out a way to make the original aussie pouches with the central stitches. But using very small cable ties instead of stitching. Makes it a lot faster and easier and produces a much more durable pouch. Than the ones without central reinforcement.

And again we can supply templates so these can be made from any conveyor belt material - which is - again - universally available and standardised.

It's all about being able to reproduce the exact same kit whever you are in the world for the standard competition. For very little outlay.

If you look at the sports that have spread around the world they are universally capable of being undertaken with minimal equipment. So that's fairly important.
Keeo it cheap, simple and easy to accurately replicate.

As far as the open comp goes - target is the same - everything else can be down to the individual.  
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