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Get a coach ! (Read 1464 times)
Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #15 - Oct 5th, 2011, 7:39am
 
@Snowcelt: I'm very serious. I don't practice HEMA at all-- why should I get a coach ? I write professionally about military history, so I keep myself informed about people who mess about with swords. I listen to reenactors, I listen to HEMA folk, I've held a shield, I've swung a sword to see what it's like.. But I don't put on breeches, and I don't put on the fencing mask. My postings in the very interesting fioredeiliberi.org forum are not those of a practitioner of that sport, but of a person who writes about, and reads about social violence.  
 
I do like to sling. So: if you do something with some interest, get a coach. This applies for most activities.  
 
Now the sticking point is: where do you get a slinging coach ?
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #16 - Oct 5th, 2011, 8:18am
 
A good instance of why you need a coach: I had correspondance with Jaegoor, and he told me how to do it: don't move your feet, twist your hips. And I was convinced that I was keeping foot drift to a minimum.  
 
Now, what are the issues ?
 
1. People are sensitive to being coached, because it means someone is better than them (and some of those who wrote with advice kindly said "We don't mean to criticize,  none of this means you're bad"). THis is nature but should not lead to the "I'd rather make my own mistakes, thank you very much" frame of mind.  
 
2. The coach really needs to know what he's doing. The article I linked to shows a surgeon calling in another surgeon, retired prof, to help him. What if it was just a busybody tagging along and saying "hey why don't you cut off that bit"-- that would not be coaching, just stupid interfering.  
 
3. SO where do we get a slinging coach ?? The only solution must be, in the absence of the "sensei" figure (for me Aussie's pronouncements have great authority but it was funny to read what his wife says)-- collaboration and constant discussion. Which is what is going on in this forum. People talk, then people make up their mind.  
 
All the same, I would not mind being coached by Yurek or Jaegoor or Livermore-- that surely is a grail.
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #17 - Oct 5th, 2011, 11:06am
 
It is to be coached very hard to themselves.
 
Often one does not note mistake, besides.
 
If one chooses, nevertheless, a trainer, one should also train after his instructions.
 
And today there a very big problem is hidden. Today information are to be got everywhere light. What is right, however and what is wrong?
 
So remains only one one must act. A final separation meet.
 
Then one is able to do a way goes.
 
After one year maybe, one checks his Errgebnisse.
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #18 - Oct 5th, 2011, 6:47pm
 
Hi Jaegoor-- this is pretty important, but I didn't understand "a final separation meet". What did you mean in German ?
 
Thanks for all your advice, by the way, in personal messages. Almost as good as having a coach !
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Aussie
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #19 - Oct 5th, 2011, 10:26pm
 
Been musing over this "what is a coach" notion and have come to the conclusion that the concept is not fixed. When you start on some new activity a coach is fully an instructor who watches your every step and guides you. However the notion that a coach must always be better than you at any given activity is obviously flawed as that would imply that at the elite level only another top player could act as coach. As you progress, the coaches role changes from absolute teacher to careful observer, guide and encourager and even as a sounding board for ideas.
 
As an aside, one of our top Australian Rules football coaches just retired here after a 28 year career, and having taken a bottom of the table team to two consecutive Grand Finals. Yet as I recall he was no great light as a player in his earlier days and certainly at 56 years of age he wouldn't even be selected for a B grade team. But as a coach he will likely never be excelled.
 
So I think I tend to agree with Steven's assessment that the coach may not have to be himself an expert slinger but he needs to be a careful observer and understand the principles of human biomechanics so he can make posite suggestions about correcting inefficient actions etc. After all slinging is not some hypercomplicated activity, the movements are similar enough to tennis and other sports for a tennis (or other similar) coach to have meaningful input.
 
Also, in our case, we have the goal. Thearos wants to sling like Jaegoor as I understand it. Now Jaegoor's style is quite well documented; we have multiple video clips on YT even though most are rear views but we do have at least one good side view. So now all our hypothetical coach has to do is to turn Thearos into Jaegoor - simple. Well, perhaps not but at least we can go part way down the road.
 
Now, what are the obvious differences? Aside from the fact that both Jaegoor and C-A appear to a good deal more solid than Thearos which naturally gives them a very stable base, I can see see three things.
 
1. Footwork - the feet are not stable, rear leg slightly bent during initial rotation.
 
2. Excessive weight transfer onto the front foot during the actual cast which causes the "forward topple".
 
3. And, very importantly, the plane of rotation of the final thrust is not the same. Jaegoor's is a distinct downward chopping action with his right hand finising up near his right hip. Whereas Thearos tends to make his final thrust as an enlarged continuation of the initial horizontal rotations with his right hand finishing up high, approximately at ear level. Now I think that this is what draws him into the excessive forward weight transfer and subsequent topple.  The topple is not the problem in itself but a consequence of the final throw.
 
So were to from here? Coaches not only point out faults but work out programs to overcome them. So FWIW here's my suggestion.
 
Temporarily forget the sling. Get a length of rope or fold up some lighter cord to simulate the weight of a sling and stone. Now stand in your normal starting position, commence your initial rotations. I think it important to always do the same number as it builds up a routine, but I have noticed that Jaegoor and some others don't always follow this rule.
 
Now when you simulate the actual final thrust you must transition out of the horizontal rotations into the overhead, downward sweeping motion. (Here timing is critical which is all feel and something I cannot explain.) Do this by a partial weight transfer onto your front foot but primarily by a distinct body rotation, commencing with the hips and following with the shoulders. The shoulders should rotate through at least 120 degrees. Remember your body's centre of mass is somewhere around your navel so provided you keep it behind the front foot you should prevent the forward topple. Make sure your right hand finishes low and to the left of your body.
 
Do these repetiotions ad nauseum until it becomes second nature. Don't go for any sort of power, just a smooth flowing action. The hard part will be when you get out with a real sling again because you will want to revert to your old horizontal release. So at first don't try to hit anything, just sling to get the projectile going forward until your new style has become second nature. At this point I would try to get a video so as to check if your movements are really right.
 
I hope all of this will be of assistance. So hard to adequately describe actions in words.
 
Regards,
 
Aussie.
 
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #20 - Oct 6th, 2011, 7:26am
 
Quote:
Now the sticking point is: where do you get a slinging coach ?

 
I believe I have mentioned in the past, that you're only about an hour and a half's drive from me Smiley  
 
some real nice slinging spots on my doorstop.  
Hell I'll even feed you Smiley  
 
Offers always open.
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #21 - Oct 6th, 2011, 7:28am
 
Thanks, Aussie.  
 
C_A-- many thanks, will think of it. Difficult with family obligations !
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #22 - Oct 6th, 2011, 7:36am
 
well we have two national forestry centres within a couple of miles.  
One has walks, activities, adventure playground etc - http://www.visitconkers.com/
 
The wife and kids can spend time there and we could wander off down the railway tracks Smiley  
 
also got the battle of bosworth visitor centre about 15 mins away, sharps pottery museum in swad.  
rosliston forestry centre - always stuff going on there at weekends
http://www.roslistonforestrycentre.co.uk/
Hell get a bunch of aussie slings and tennis balls and I could probably get the use of the arena at ros, everyone could join in.
 
There are advantages to living slap bang in the centre of the country Smiley  
 
Most people can't sling for more than an hour or two anyway. So bring the family and make a day of it Smiley  
Some nice b&bs just down the road - make a weekend Smiley
 
Even got  a big fluffy dog that kids can play with Smiley  
Seriously it's a no-brainer and I tend to be a lot less critical in person  Wink
 
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Jaegoor
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #23 - Oct 6th, 2011, 8:29am
 
Sorry for bad English
 
 
Endscheidung.
 
 
It is important which one exactly knows what one would want.
 
If I want only fun. No problem
 
If everybody may have.
 
However, fun is relative
 
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #24 - Oct 6th, 2011, 9:17am
 
Decision, you meant "decision". OK !
 
Thanks C_A for all that. And a great dog too ! We'll see, maybe when I get some time later on...
 
In the meantime, I was slinging at one of my kid's school (Aussie sling and windfallen apples), and ended up making an "Apu-sling" for a boy.  
 
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #25 - Oct 6th, 2011, 10:54am
 
Aussie: my goal is to hit what I'm aiming at, not specifically to sling like Jaegoor. Nonetheless, i will give your programme a try !
 
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #26 - Oct 6th, 2011, 11:54am
 
Quote from Thearos on Oct 6th, 2011, 10:54am:
Aussie: my goal is to hit what I'm aiming at, not specifically to sling like Jaegoor. Nonetheless, i will give your programme a try !


 
Well Jaegoor seems to be able to hit what he's aiming at better than most so emulating him ain't a bad way to go.
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #27 - Oct 6th, 2011, 6:17pm
 
Thanks, Aussie. I'm practicing what you recommend. But isn't what I was doing earlier just normal helicopter style ?
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #28 - Oct 6th, 2011, 10:09pm
 
Quote from Thearos on Oct 6th, 2011, 6:17pm:
Thanks, Aussie. I'm practicing what you recommend. But isn't what I was doing earlier just normal helicopter style ?

 
Not quite. To be honest, I haven't practised helicopter very much, Fig.8 is my preffered style. Nevertheless I would have still offered the same advice with the possible exception of keeping the front foot permanently planted, Jaegoor stye. I always step into my shots; possibly because I've tried to emulate baseball pitchers. Anyway I can't seem to break the habit and I'm not sure it's a fault anyway.
 
However, the angled arcing and downward sweeping motion of the final thrust as per Jaegoor is definitely the way to go. A horizontally sweeping final thrust is inefficient. Slinging is largely improved throwing; you wouldn't throw that way.  
 
Helicopter is a bit deceiving, the initial rotations are only to give the slinger tactile feedback and position the sling for the final thrust. When you watch helicopter, it's the initial rotations that stick in your mind's eye but all the real action comes at the end.
 
BTW I forgot to add in my previous post. I strongly suggest you practise in front of a mirror so as to be sure you're really sweeping that had down and to the left. Perhaps you could enlist the aid of one of your sportsminded students.
 
I'll PS some links to David Morningstar and another Canadian chap who posts as Africa 1975. His is a particularly unstructured style, but wow, it's effective. Watch for the overhead sweep and lots of body rotation.
 
 
 
HELICOPTER STYLE
 
David Morningstar, Helicopter Style
Thread with a description of this intuitive style
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1252484095
Video clip demonstrating Helicopter Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GXkmT7eJFo
Slow Motion Video, slinging towards camera
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kikC0Q9m8O8
Africa1975, Helicopter Style.
A very effective and accurate demonstration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvyTFtzdwY
 
Hondero: Traditional Styles
Called "Overhead" and "Underhand" on the video. Generally known as Helicopter and Underarm on this site  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cIgoZ7wNU
 
 
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Thearos
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Re: Get a coach !
Reply #29 - Oct 7th, 2011, 4:43am
 
Got it, thanks. I always thought that helicopter meant release in the horizontal plane, but the angling as a matter of course is pretty good. Now to make sure that the shots don't plough...
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