Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Get a coach ! (Read 7466 times)
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3417
Get a coach !
Oct 3rd, 2011 at 3:19pm
 
This is nearly off topic, but ties in to my earlier thread called Slinging in the Sun


http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315012082

-- it's about the need for "outside eyes", i.e coaching and advice, if you want to improve in anything-- starting with slinging, of course. So get an experienced slinger to watch you; if you can't, video and post.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rat Man
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 13926
New Jersey, USA
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #1 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 3:30pm
 
Yes, very true.  One can only get so far on their own, they plateau.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Past Moderator
*
Offline


Joined Nov. 1, 2006  Luke
14:14

Posts: 3265
Melbourne, Australia
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #2 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 7:30pm
 
The article brings up a very interesting point that your own perception of what you do may be quite different from reality. So even if you don't get someone else's opinion it's good to see yourself on video and act as your own coach.
Back to top
 

Cranks are little things that make revolutions.&&
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3417
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #3 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 10:17pm
 
At the very least ! But it takes the outside gaze also to be detached enough and hard-eyed enough to offer criticism rather than self-praise.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rat Man
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 13926
New Jersey, USA
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #4 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 11:36pm
 
I recently saw a video of me bowling for the first time.  It was actually a relief.  I always thought that I looked awkward and weird when I bowled.  At least that's how I felt.  It was nice to see that I look pretty normal.  Besides that, I could pick out many little but important flaws I wouldn't have noticed any other way.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dan
Interfector Viris Spurii
SlingingGuide Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3974
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #5 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 8:41am
 
You have got a couple dozen expierienced coaches on here.  Wink

However I would think it is only usefull to a certain extent when slinging. In that, it is probably the most "personal" weapon there is and beside some things like hip rotation and stance, there really can't be a whole lot added, unlike archery where there is a set form, the sling has a huge variation of use and after about a year or so most of your time is perfecting the time of your release (the difference between a hit and a miss is ussally less than a tenth of a second of relase time, which is what makes slinging so challenging).
Back to top
 

I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
IP Logged
 
PhantomPineapple
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 16
Lake Charles, LA
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #6 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 9:38am
 
I've found teaching parkour to be the same, Dan. The defining characteristic of the movements is safety and not a certain form. So what would be a perfect roll for me (protecting head, neck and spine) could be horrible for someone else. We get around this by showing the generally accepted forms while explaining the underlying principles, then encouraging the students to play around with the movement in a safe environment. We make sure there is nothing obviously wrong, then ask the student how it felt and use that as a basis to give advice. We also break the more complicated moves into their component steps to make them easier to understand.

Perhaps one could post a description of what the throw felt like in addition to a video? As I've been working on figure 8 I've noticed the feel of the movement change quite a bit as I "seem" to improve.

Also, I have taught many people how to bowl a ball in cricket and I am always amazed that they don't feel when they bend their arm. They turn it into a baseball pitch without even realizing it. It is possible then that I am doing something very wrong without realizing it. I shall have to record myself slinging soon.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3417
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #7 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 9:47am
 
No, no: read the article-- get a coach ! Too many people on this forum say "hey, slinging is really personal". This is like saying "Hey, tennis is personal, my serve feels right" or "running is personal". It's not about how it feels. There may be ways of slinging that feel awkward but are more efficient. That's what you want.

Get a coach, not a couch.




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
timann
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 2504
Norway
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #8 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 2:22pm
 
That was an interesting article, Thearos. 
I can easily see my need of a coach but as I am the only slinger (those who sling twice each year or less can hardly count) around that`s a bit of a problem.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3417
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #9 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 2:57pm
 
Earlier, one of the regulars here, while developing his style of slinging (fig-4 as I call it) got into a discussion with Jaegoor. Jaegoor said the style didn't develop enough power; the other guy said "it must be powerful because my muscles ache".

That's exactly the sort of fallacy that a coach can talk you out of. I try placing my rotor further back, but my arm aches. A coach could tell me more about placement and alignment and help me improve.

Where to find a slinging coach ? Answer: this MUST be a priority at any slinging meet. Someone who can sling but feels that he can improve should approach someone who's thought a lot about this (Jaegoor, Yurek), and say OK, talk to me, what am I doing wrong, why do i foul a shot sometimes and why do I sometimes shoot high.


Do what the pros do. Get off the couch, get a coach.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Steven
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


RaptorIsAsRaptorDoes

Posts: 2101
Austin, Tx.
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #10 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 10:30pm
 
Keep in mind a coach is a coach and not necessarily a slinger  Wink  A coach has critical observation skills  Smiley and can watch successful slingers to see how they perform ; then watch you and provide a critical analysis   Cry  of the way you perform vs a successful slinger.  Cool  If you look you can find coaches even if there are no slingers near.
Back to top
 

A Curmudgeon@Large Civilly Fomenting Anarchy one post at a time...I don't like it is not a valid reason and Everyone knows is not a valid rule...Hi Ho, Hi Ho Its Off To Work I Go; As Ci-vi-lly As I Can Be Hi Ho, Hi Ho, Hi Ho...
THIS ADVICE IS WORTH WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT.
 
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Past Moderator
*
Offline


Joined Nov. 1, 2006  Luke
14:14

Posts: 3265
Melbourne, Australia
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #11 - Oct 4th, 2011 at 10:46pm
 
The difficulty in comparing slinging and say tennis or some other common sport is that coaching at any level is easy to obtain and all the basics are well established.  You join your local tennis club and get lessons from an accredited coach who was himself probably a professional player. As, and if, you improve you get better and better coaching until at the top level the coaches are as elite as the players. Most of us slingers are lucky to ever get together with even one other slinger so there is no ready pool of experts to consult. I would dearly love to get together with Jurek and Jaegoor. Unfortunately finances and time preclude that at the moment.

I must say it took a deal of courage to post your video and invite criticism the way you did and I was honoured to find you specifically wanted my input. But really how do you know my advice was valid? Sure I talk a lot and generally am quite confident in my opinions but then my wife just thinks I'm a pig headed bombast. I am quite confident that my understanding of the physics of the sling itself is accurate (engineering background) but I am no sportsman and my analyses of style are based only on observation, especially of sports which I consider have similar characteristics to slinging, namely baseball pitching and cricket bowling, tennis forehand shots and the golf swing. Funnily enough hammer throw which is really a form of slinging has little relevance because of the extreme weight of the hammer (16lbs).

Even people connected with sport may have their particular biases. For example Jeagoor obvious anti Fig.8 bias seems relatively unfounded. It may be largely based on the fact that he uses very heavy (200gm+) projectiles. Nevertheless any dire predictions of injuries have not eventuated in my case at least. True, aching muscles are not proof of power, in fact an inefficient activity may produce more muscle soreness than an efficient one. But the way to settle the question is not to argue theoretical merits but to measure the velocity (Audacity method). What counts is accuracy and stone speed, not the style. Of course with something like Fig.4 overshoulder you may be prepared to sacrifice some muscular efficiency to achieve a compact, fast hunting style.

Even in "slinging shangrila", namely the Balearic Islands, slinging is hardly standardised. Have a look at the video of their competition posted by MegaFoska; all sorts of strange and inefficient actions. I can't believe that they were all coached into doing some of the weird actions they do. BTW As I've pointed out before, not one of them throws with a style anywhere near that employed by Jaegoor.

So, by all means get coaching if you can. But make sure your "coach" has at least some claim to fame and is giving you good advice.


PS I was going to add. David Morningstar and C-A live within reasonable driving distance of you. It would be beneficial for all to have a weekend get together and compare notes. Take plenty of video, slomos are especially helpful.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2011 at 1:52am by Aussie »  

Cranks are little things that make revolutions.&&
 
IP Logged
 
snowcelt
Tiro
**
Offline


So far....so good!

Posts: 12
Turku, SW Finland.
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #12 - Oct 5th, 2011 at 2:34am
 
I think Thearos is only half serious. On subjects of fencing of fencing and HEMA, when he was repeatedly advised to join a group so that certain actions could be better explained rather than trying to  intellectually understand certain actions like parrying (etc.), he declined. Is this a case of "do what I say, not what I do" ? Wink
Back to top
 

Laimh laidir in uachtar- Family motto.&&Ni bheidh mo leitheid aris ann.&&Who said that basic means simple? Time spent training the basics is never wasted time.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
PhantomPineapple
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 16
Lake Charles, LA
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #13 - Oct 5th, 2011 at 4:59am
 
When I was fencing épée I used a style known as posting, holding a French grip at the pommel, even though everyone else in the area uses a pistol grip. Everyone at my club had learned under a professional coach who moved away a few weeks before I started and I realized that I would never be able to compete with them using that style without similar coaching. Switching styles took a lot of practice, including drills with a crowbar, but after only a year and a half of fencing I was able to beat people with more than 10 or 15 years experience. That said, the person I practiced with the most soon learned the weaknesses of my style and exploited them until I learned to compensate for them. I would not have had nearly as much success without his "practical" coaching.

Also, in my earlier post when I mentioned that it might be helpful to post how a throw feels in addition to a video, I did not mean in terms such as "awkward" or "natural", but rather information that might be useful to someone for diagnosing a problem. I don't think I'm experienced enough to know everything that would be important, but I have noticed that with helicopter style I feel like I'm just twirling the sling in my hand while with figure 8 the sling feels more like a part of my hand. Or in some shots I feel like the weight is simply revolving around my hand while other times I feel like my hand is determining the movement. I don't think a video alone could convey that information, but it seems important.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 13965
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Get a coach !
Reply #14 - Oct 5th, 2011 at 6:36am
 
your main problem is the after throw movement.

Given that you're only throwing softly the picking up of the back foot and hopping is completely pointless and actually puts you off balance at the point of release.

So the first thing you need to do is keep your feet still.

Any movement should be restircted to just your waist and upper body.
That way you can find the stance and angle that gives you the most consistent results.

Once you've mastered throwing with out foot movement you can try stepping forward into the shot (which is not what you are doing at the moment.)

But the best advice all slingers can have to start with is to keep their feet rooted to the ground. And concentrate of using their waist to generate power.

Watch some video of luis pons livermore. his feet never move an inch between throws. Each throw is taken from the same stance as the previous one - cutting down on physical variables.


So is this a thread about what you are doing wrong or about whether or not it helps to have someone explain how you can improve (well, yeah it does - kind of  amoot point).
Or whether any coach can coach anyone in any sport - well no.

To improve your slinging you really need someone who slings better than you do, but is also capable of beaing able to break down a particular throw into it's individual variables and knows how to improve on them.



Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Rat Man, Chris, Curious Aardvark, Kick, Morphy, joe_meadmaker, vetryan15)