Bikewer wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2011 at 8:00pm:

Even L. Ron Hubbard was pushing it as divine for a while, and after he stopped doing so Scientology continued to claim that it was divinely inspired - though not with those exact terms.

Bikewer wrote on Oct 4^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

Probably. To some extent, it also deserves study as a cult, as the focus around a single living person, the multiple levels of closeness to this person (and the whole inner circle which isn't affected by general restrictions detail), the extent to which apostasy is conceptually important, and the leader who doesn't even belief much of what he preached are all cult elements. It might be more useful to compare it to the Ayn Rand cult than Christianity or similar.

That's true, but less so now than in the beginning of the cult.   I think they're trying for a lower profile these days.
I had a book years ago called Cults Of Unreason which was written way back when L. Ron himself was knocking around the ocean on his converted trawler as the "Sea Org".    They were really scary back then....

peacefuljeffrey wrote on Oct 4^th, 2011 at 6:11pm:

At that time Scientologists perpetrated the largest infiltration of the US government in the history of our country. Check out Operation Snow White. I'd call early scientologists dangerous and intimidating as a group. As for the current state of the church, I don't know.

"GOD is awesome, but thanks for the kind words. Without HIM, I am nothing. Tracy" -turbodog061188 1 month ago

This is what religion and belief in the supernatural has done to people. It degrades a person to the point where they think they are worthless, that they are nothing, and that only God gives them strength. It's despicable. Where is the morality in saying we all have original sin, and if we don't accept Jesus as our savior, we're tortured for eternity? Where are the morals in punishing finite lifetimes with infinite time? How can they compare?

You have parents raising kids to believe that God is the greatest most awesome thing in the world and life is all about worshiping God, their Lord. It sounds like complete servantry to me, degrading themselves to their king or something. But people aren't worthless, or nothing without God. Correct me if I'm making assumptions here about some of you, because as we have established, plenty of Christians hold different views on some issues, I'm sure this is no different.

Throwing out a quote from Bertrand Russell here.

"The world, we are told, was created by a God who is both good and omnipotent. Before He created the world He foresaw all the pain and misery that it would contain: He is therefore responsible for all of it. It is useless to argue that the pain in the world is due to sin. In the first place, this is not true; it is not sin that causes rivers to overflow their banks or volcanoes to erupt... If I were going to beget a child knowing that the child was going to be a homicidal maniac, I should be responsible for his crimes., If God knew in advance the sins of which man would be guilty, He was clearly responsible... when He decided to create man."   -"Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?, 1930, Bertrand Russel, republished in "Why I am Not a Christian, Bertrand Russell.

Thoughts? Corrections? Is Russell accurate in his statement that God would know about sin before he created humans? Is all pain due to suffering, as Russell seems to think Christian Doctrine says?

Dan,
I found "Mere Christianity" in my local library, so I'm working on reading through it now. It's a revised copy, but it has the points in it.

Bikewer wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2011 at 9:25am:



It's also the shortest.  Thanks, experts are better than google.  I had heard somewhere it was John.

I have no more reason to believe the Bible than I do the Koran, or any Native American myths and stories.

I don't like to use personal examples because I think they can be biased depending on where you live and who you're friends with, but I'm breaking that tradition right now, because so many personal stories come out from religion.

Friend of mine was raised somewhat religiously, and when she was younger, round elementary school, she was so terrified she was going to end up in hell that she made up her own religion so she wouldn't.  Religion is fear, I've read this so many times. Hitchens, Russell, Dawkins, I'm sure there are more. And I'm starting to agree. We've got a  fear of no purpose in life or something, so we have these wonderful sounding stories from all cultures across the world. Doesn't make them true.

How do you want to define religion then?

religion- a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Why do you think Christianity doesn't fit this? Or another definition, as there are so many?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if religious people did those things to Jesus in the Bible, religion is an excellent source of justification for heinous acts and injustices. Just look to the witches of the middle ages, the inquisition, crusades, opposition to birth control, slavery, divorce, marriage for gays, and general intolerance for those not of the same faith and values.

That humility looks suspiciously similar to self-denigration then. Is it humbleness, or feeling worthless compared to these ideals that we simply can not replicate without torturing ourselves in the process, for the most part?

Dan... I don't normally bother to read passages from the bible as I have no regard for the document (whichever version) as an authoritative text of any sort.  It's just a compilation of writings from human authors.
What I do regard is the actual words of contemporary religious authorities.  Any number of whom from the Protestant side have said very clearly just as I described..."No Jesus, no Salvation."  If you have not had the "born again" experience, you are damned.   Maybe you don't believe this way, but let me assure you that many Protestants in many different sects do.   This would seem to bear out the scenario I proposed about billions of humans being condemned out of mere ignorance.

On a more general note.... It's a common feature of religions to feature some sort of submission to "the will of God".   In Islam, it's a central feature.  Although they don't come out and say it as boldly as the Muslims, Christians adopt pretty much the same idea.   Although Buddhists have no idea of a personified God, they too use the same notion in that one "divorces" oneself from the world which is seen as "Maya" or illusion. 

On the good side, this can be seen as an attempt to allow believers to deal with the vicissitudes of life.   Child dies?  It's the will of God.   Tornado wipes out your house?  Same thing.   Tsunami kills thousands...   And so on.   The ways of God are mysterious, after all.  Don't worry about it, it's all God's will. 
However...This idea has been cynically exploited by religious and political leaders through history.  The peasants have a miserable, just-clinging to life existence, while the lords sit in luxury in their castles?    Don't worry, it's the will of God.  They'll get theirs in the end....
"Come on, we need to go to war against those "other" people.  The church commands it, it's the will of God.  And if you die in this war, you'll go straight to Heaven."
And so on.  Taken to it's ultimate extension, this attitude leads to a sheeplike acceptance of everything.  The status quo remains the same. 
As James Burke points out in his "The Day The Universe Changed"... The attitude of Christianity in the middle ages was simple:  "The purpose of this life is to get you ready for the next one."
So, as long as you're obedient, nothing much matters.
We see this today regarding attitudes towards the environment.  Why should we worry about fouling the air and water, and stripping the forests and driving thousands of species into extinction?  The end is near...

Fortunately, some religious sects have come to a different viewpoint in recent years, seeing man as the steward of God's creation, and that perhaps the End isn't as near as they thought.  (we just passed another End Times prediction , BTW...Wrong again.)