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Bronze sword (Read 23046 times)
wannasling
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Bronze sword
Dec 29th, 2010 at 5:35pm
 
I made this in my metal sculpture class in school a while back. Along with an axe and a Maori war club. I can't find the others at the moment (we moved) I will post pics as soon as I find them. It's pretty heavy for a sword, around five pounds. It seems decently balanced to me. it would defiantly give someone an Excedrin headache though.
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Jabames
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #1 - Dec 29th, 2010 at 6:55pm
 
Excellent work man,  the bronze age is my favorite,  bronze isnt as good as other metals(strength wise),  but to me its the most beautiful of all I think. at least to me.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #2 - Dec 29th, 2010 at 6:57pm
 
Wannasling, would you kindly allow me to post some picture of my bronze working here?
Morphy asked me to do so, but I've seen you have opened this topic and it would not be so nice for me to open a new one.... that would be a bit confusing for the forumers, I believe  Smiley
An excellent work you've done, howewer; I'd truly like to share my pictures with another bronze melter!
Greetings,
Mauro.
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wannasling
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #3 - Dec 29th, 2010 at 7:02pm
 
Share away. Smiley And bronze is probably my favorite metal. I just love the look. I'll try to find the axe and Maori war club I did. When I cast these, I m made two sword blanks at the same time, never finished the other yet.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #4 - Dec 29th, 2010 at 7:33pm
 
Thank you! Many thanks! Ok, I'll write very little, because I've got some picture and don't want to stole much space  Smiley
These ones refers to an experiment we've made the 12nd of June, 2009, in Numana, a village close to my town, in the South.

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These're me and one of the other 2 guys involved; we provided the air by using two bellows, simultaneously.

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This is the forge we've used. We've built it using some archaeological foundings as models. This kind of forge was very common in a Region close to mine, the Emilia Romagna, where, during the Bronze Age, a very significant culture developed: the Terramare, so-called because of the founding of stilts (Terramare means earth and sea). Archaeological foundings conserved very well in that soil; there've been found even wooden objects such as bows and boats, dating to 3000-2500 b.C. Note that every thing you see in these picture, such as the clay, has been made with Bronze Age technology  Smiley

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Here, the forge was running; we used hard wood coal, such as chestnut and oak, because the ancients used that, and it provides much more heat than evergreen coal, for example (which is, on the other hand, very suitable for torchs, for that it burns for more time).

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The team at work  Smiley

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Here, copper and tin melted, making liquid bronze!

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And here's the raw axe, still in its mold. These experiments intended to test the resistance of the mold and the crucible, that's why we've made them with Bronze Age technology. In fact, as you can see in the left, the crucible is inside the forge again. We wanted to study some crucible fragments founded near Ferrara, in Emilia Romagna, that shows signs of intense use, and tested our one to reach its limits.

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Here's a bad melting  Smiley We made three in less than 45 minutes, and an experimental group of archaeologists managed to made 10 meltings in less than two hours, thus confirming the validity of our experiment!

I hope you enjoyed these pictures; I've found some other referring to a show we made this spring, but it's 1.32 am here in Italy and I'm a bit tired; I'll post them tomorrow  Cheesy
Thank you and good night!
Mauro.
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wannasling
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #5 - Dec 29th, 2010 at 8:24pm
 
Wow! That's Great! We had a gas fired forge to melt up to 50 pounds of bronze. I want to figure how to build a small one so I can still play with bronze casting.
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #6 - Dec 29th, 2010 at 9:54pm
 
Hey wannasling!
So you melted about 22,65 kilos of bronze?? That's amazing! What a great result!
Our axes weights about 100gr, less than 1/4 pound, if I calculated right  Cheesy
The biggest - and heavier - objects I can think of are musclar cuirasses, shields and helmets of Hellenistic period; but I'm quite sure that these (except, perhaps, for the helmets) were mere parade items: they were made by hammering the bronze, and this mean that the alloy contained a high percentage of lead, to make the bronze more flexible. But this even made it more fragile, and heavy, and I would not wear such defenses in the middle of a melee battle... especially not against iron swords!
I believe that ancient warriors relied on hardened leather defenses, and on active defense, I mean the agility needed to avoid enemy hits.
Howewer,
actually I use a modern crank forge for melting small bronze jewelry, while I've built another one similar to that shown in the pictures above, but with just one bellow, and I've tested its power: I have melted iron in it, so just one bellow would work nicely for the bronze too!  Wink
Damn, I just woke up for a glass of water, and look what I'm doing   Cheesy
Good night!
Mauro.
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wannasling
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #7 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 1:42am
 
I didn't melt that much, lol. It was a large capacity forge for the whole class. I melted about 13 or 14 pounds five going into each sword and the rest being left over bronze. which went into the axe and maori club. Wish I could cast more bronze. I think I would go with a mace head or war hammer type set up.
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #8 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 3:53am
 
I went to this a few months ago. Best weekend ever.

http://www.bronzeageswords.com/workshop_2011.htm

This is my sword

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« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2010 at 12:10pm by Curious Aardvark »  

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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #9 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 7:55am
 
Lycurgus, your sword is very nice! It's a Middle Bronze Age model from Great Britain, if I recall correctly?
We were beginning to turn our "production"  Grin into swords, but then we quarreled and no more experiments followed  Roll Eyes
Are you going to give your sword a handle?

Wannasling, I'd really love to see your Maori club, because I've never seen one and I'm very curious! There're a lot of mace heads, especially from the Middle Age.
In my Region, a lot of bronze daggers have been found. Your sword reminds me of an Egyptian one, dating 1'500 b.C.
I'll show you some pictures of my Region's foundings, maybe you melters like them and reproduce them  Smiley

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this is one of the 4 or 5 different kinds of swords founded in my Region; this particular one is the "Tarquinia shape" sword, one of the most used in Central Italy between Bronze and Iron Age.

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This is a simple spear head;

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and this is a helmet of Etrurian shape.
All this bronze weaponry is representative of the higher period of bronze making, because belongs to 9th Century b.C. Bronze making then reached its zenith, and after some decades it will begin to fall, and iron smithing to rise. Knives, then daggers and swords, began to be forged in iron, but mantained most of the bronze one's shapes. Those iron objects are what I'm trying to replicate nowaday.

Here're some pictures of daggers found in a depot of 27, dating to the Early Bronze Age in my Region.
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Smiley Greetings,
Mauro.
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wannasling
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #10 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 11:22am
 
Great images Mauro. I like and want swords and such, but I'm a person who likes authentic things. I don't want a cheap wall hanger. I want a fully functional weapon if I'm going to get one. Sadly I don't know a lot about steel, what is cheap and what works well for a sword? I am ignorant of a lot of that. I do however know bronze. it is weak, as far as holding an edge compared to steel, but it can function. I think if I do get, or more make bronze weapons again, they will be more in the nature of blunt weapons. Maces, hammers, etc etc. The axe I made is heave enough, that should it lose an edge, it can still deliver a powerful blow. I do think, the weapons I have made are perhaps a bit Too heavy, but it's a learning process.
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #11 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 12:46pm
 
wannasling wrote on Dec 30th, 2010 at 11:22am:
Great images Mauro. I like and want swords and such, but I'm a person who likes authentic things. I don't want a cheap wall hanger. I want a fully functional weapon if I'm going to get one.


I completely agree with you! One of the objectives of experimental archaeology is to test the functionality of the replicas - I could make dozens of cheap wall hangers, but only an effectively working tool, or weapon, can make me proud of my work! And, by testing its effectiveness, I can even record how does it wear, and understand particular shapes (example, a curved sword is best suitable for close melee combats, a huge one fits mounted units, and so on...).

About steel: I know a lot of different types, but I do not use steel when I forge: steel was unknown in the period that I re-create, or, better, ancient ironsmiths forged raw iron, and understood that it became harder by tempering it. In more recent times (from Vth Century b.C.) they even begun to forge different pieces of the same tool, with different grades of hardening (a spear head found in Etruria revealed 6 different pieces of iron, each forged and tempered separately, to grant high hardness in the center, but long-lasting sharpening edges), but I'm involved in IXth-VIIth Centuries iron smithing, so I don't use steel. Howewer, if you would like to try, 440c or c40 steels works fine, but there's a trick for making the finest sword with the minimum effort:

get yourself a pack of cheap truck springs, choose the one you prefer, and shape it as a sword. Add the edge and the handle. Remember to work it without using any heat, or that excellent steel will lose its temper. The work is very hard, but in the end you'll have a sword capable of crushing forged ones. No other steel can beat that one, in making a sword; I've tried one of that against an old anvil and it cut the iron for the depth of almost half an inch!  Shocked

Don't think that bronze is weak: it just needs some after-melting additional work: after you've got the object (finished, ready to be hafted), put its edge in the forge again, at a moderate heat (from 500 to 650°), and then hammer it. The heat is necessary to grant a certain flexibility, because with the hammering you distribute the cooper along the edge, thus making it more hard. You could even temper it, but it's ininfluent, because it's not the carbon molecules that you must fix (as it happens when you temper hammered iron).

About weapons: we should open another big topic, about which one is the best weapon. I can tell you that it depends on a lot of factors: which kind of battle will you find yourself involved in, how strong you are, how agile, how much self-confident; how is the weapon made, the terrain... I myself prefer a short spear, combined with a small round shield and a cap, these made of hard leather. I'd add a medium sized (about 25, 30 centimeters long) knife, just in case the melee turns too close for using the spear, and a bow to the spear, for killing or maiming my enemy before he reaches me. But blowing weapons could be devasting, such as heavy axes, which are said to be capable to split a horse's head with a single blow. I repeat, it all depends on a vaste range of factors. I've practiced boxe for some time, and kung fu, and have been involved in some street riots, and I can tell that you almost win when you begin a fight with a high morale and a perfect control of your breath. After that, it's all about how much you've trained yourself in the weapon you like (talking about melee fights  Wink ).
 
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #12 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 12:58pm
 
The bronze casting itself is very attractive to me also.I'm working on molds and the crucible is made,needs to be fired.I also need to get some bellows,maybe make one bronze age style.I want to cast dagger,small axe.I usually I "document" my small projects with photos,here's one of some positives that will be pushed into sandy clay to make the mold.The axe is a scythian kind of small axehead,that cracked it's mane while firing the clay,so it has to be corrected with plaster.The dagger is carved from beech wood and it's blades cross section is a really flat bipointed like.
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #13 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 1:09pm
 
Well, I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea on how to temper the edge of a bronze sword. I don't have the room or equipment either, sadly. I'll see if I can find some truck springs and play around with them. Nice work jlasud.
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Re: Bronze sword
Reply #14 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 1:11pm
 
Hallo there Jlasud!
I congratulate on your efforts, and hope that you continue in that way: making a truly working tool, or weapon, using ancient methods is a very, very, very big satisfaction!! You seem able in manual works; continue that way and don't be afraid of failure, because bad meltings can always be melted again, and again, and so on  Cheesy But I think you will achieve it the first time!

About the bellow, it's very easy to make one. I'll try to describe how I made mine.
Basically, it's a square, with each side long 60 centimeters (23,6 inches I think), made with soft, but resistant, leather.
So, I took a piece of leather long 1,20 meter and 60 centimeters wide (47,2 x 23,6 inches) and folded it; I then have sewed its sides. But be careful: on one side, near to the bottom of the bellows, leave about 5 centimeters (about 2 inches) of leather, without sewing it: there's where you will insert the pipe.
Once you've sewed all, apply four wooden sticks to the top of the bellows: viewed from above, they should form a shape like this < > : they will be the handles with which you will open the bellow, put the air in, close it and then press the air out of the pipe. You can apply those sticks by folding the leather around them, and then sewing it; I've practiced holes at one edge of each stick so that I've been able to tie each couple; this prevents them from moving.
Then, choose your pipe: for the bronze, we've used ceramic ones, but it's an error, because no such archaeological foundings are documented. When I've had to make my bellows, I wanted it fully philological, so I took a cane, found with dozens of others along a river, holed it inside and applied it to the bellows, inserting it in the "hole" I told you about above, and assuring it with ropes.
Now all you need is a nozzle, which I have made of clay. It's very resistant, it just melted a bit when I melted iron (but it mean that it can bear a 1500° heat, so no problem with bronze).
Note that the wooden cane tends to burn slowly (I change one each 20 or 25 forging), but it's easy and cheap to replace it.

Now you have a historical bellows, which requires less than 10 hours for making; I even know how to built Celtic and Medieval ones, but ask me via PM if you need  Smiley
If my explanation is not clear, ask away and I'll try to post some pictures or paintings about making a bellows!
Greetings and good work,
Mauro.
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