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WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curious (Read 18270 times)
Masiakasaurus
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #15 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 5:35pm
 
The best answer for hunting: center of mass. If you are unsure if you can cleanly incapacitate or kill the animal within minutes do not sling at it. When it comes to hunting small and fast is better than large and slow because it packs more energy. The reason large calibers are used in guns is that bullets can have both, but I doubt even the most fit person could manage to sling something massive very fast. I would not deer hunt with a sling. I would not boar hunt with only a sling (though if I had a boar spear in my off hand I would herd it with my sling).
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #16 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 5:44pm
 
Jabames wrote on Sep 22nd, 2010 at 2:18am:
deer are very jumpy and cautious it would take a skilled hunter to take em down with a sling,  but its a lot of punch for a small animal u can say overkill but adequate,  i think im at a point where i can hit anything at 25yds more or less so a deer or a ram would be in trouble though i find it difficult to put together both power and accuracy at the same time,  but i have shattered a stone against a chain before and hit very small targets soo i think i rank as mediocre, idk about the best but its possible


Isn't three newtons about 0.6 pounds? I think I can poke a deer harder than that...
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #17 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:02pm
 
1 pound is 4.4 Newtons of force in the downward direction.

If I was going to sling at anything larger than a fox I would use a compound sling to accelerate a small projectile to very high velocities with the force from the much greater length the compound sling gives me. Or I would use a bow instead. Tongue
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #18 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:05pm
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:02pm:
1 pound is 4.4 Newtons of force in the downward direction.


Google's wrong??  Shocked

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=3+newtons+to+pounds&btnG=Search&aq...
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I am not the potter, not the potter's wheel, but the potter's clay; is not the value of the shape attained as dependent upon the intrinsic worth of the clay as upon the wheel and the Master's skill?&&- Stephen King, The Stand
 
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #19 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:10pm
 
picklepie159 wrote on Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:05pm:
Masiakasaurus wrote on Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:02pm:
1 pound is 4.4 Newtons of force in the downward direction.


Google's wrong??  Shocked

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=3+newtons+to+pounds&btnG=Search&aq...

Google is over simplified. Here is the definition from a conversion website:
Quote:
How many pounds in 1 Newton? The answer is 0.224808943871.
We assume you are converting between pound-force and newton.
You can view more details on each measurement unit:
pounds or Newton
The SI derived unit for force is the newton.
1 pounds is equal to 4.4482216 newton.
Note that rounding errors may occur, so always check the results.
Use this page to learn how to convert between pounds-force and newtons.
Type in your own numbers in the form to convert the units!

There are multiple "pounds" including the London pound, Avoirdupois pound, and the US standard "International Avoirdupois" pound. To be as accurate as possible convert from 2.20462 US pounds to 1 kilogram and then to Newtons by multiplying by the acceleration (which is 9.8 m/s2 for gravity). There are 4.4 Newtons of force downward per US pound of weight.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #20 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:25pm
 
Jabames wrote on Sep 22nd, 2010 at 5:12pm:
wait i think i got it wrong its 3.62 KN, 3620 Newtons


I finally tumbled to where this 3.62 kN comes from. It's the reading from the load cell which Luis Pons Livermore hits in the video of him slinging in the desert, supposedly investigating whether it would have been possible for David to kill Goliath.

Please, please, please, don't assume that you can take that figure and just plug it in everywhere as typical of all slingstone impacts! That figure was achieved by a particular slinger under very specific circumstances. Make no mistake, I have no doubt that Luis could in fact do the job but the experiment as it was set up was seriously flawed. Go back and have a look at Mike our trauma surgeon and after he quotes his 3 kN figure he quietly adds over an area of 30 mm^2. Now this changes everything!!!! Force over area is pressure. The experiment was measuring the wrong thing.  Actually the pressure in such a hard collision would be much higher than that required by the surgeon.

As I said before, Luis is a top-notch slinger who could easily have killed Goliath. He did exactly what was asked of him. But the way the experiment was set up by the organisers was as "scientific" as a Mythbusters episode. As a general rule be suspicious of any figures quoted in such shows. They give a pseudo-scientific sort of feel to the presentation but are nearly always suspect.

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« Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2010 at 8:13pm by Aussie »  

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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #21 - Sep 22nd, 2010 at 6:34pm
 
okay man
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #22 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 1:31am
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Sep 22nd, 2010 at 5:35pm:
When it comes to hunting small and fast is better than large and slow because it packs more energy.


Just curious what is your reasoning behind this statement Masia?  I only have personal experience to cite here but from that I would have said the exact opposite. For example I use (or used) a large piece of ply wood for a backstop. Smaller golf ball-sized stones would generally bounce off it with only a small dent. Larger stones, maybe twice that size or more would often times leave a massive impact area, or go right through it completely.

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« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2010 at 8:17pm by Morphy »  
 
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #23 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 8:15am
 
My data comes from physics. The equation for kinetic energy is E=1/2mv2. Arbitrarily take 2 and 5 to be the mass and velocity, and vice versa.
Equation 1:
m=2 kg
v=5 m/s
E=25 J

Equation 2:
m=5kg
v=2 m/s
E=10 J

The reason your board broke was from the inertia of the stone and the brittleness of the board.
Edited:
I should also mention momentum. Momentum is given by the equation p=mv, so the momentum in both equations above is the same (10 kg-m/s). With higher  momentum there is more force needed to stop an object. That is where being massive is helpful.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #24 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 7:01pm
 
I don't think it's quite that simple...

This inverse relationship you have between your two equations is not accurate in a real world scenario... From a real world scenario, take two stones, one is 1 oz and the other is 2 oz. Both can be slung at near the same speeds even though one has 100% more mass then the other.

There is a point of diminishing returns obviously, where the torque your arm can produce is not up to getting your heavier projectile to maximum acceleration in the time allotted by your particular wind-up,  but up until that point the heavier object will have more KE.

The reason being, your arm can only accelerate so much. Just because an object is half as much mass does not mean your arm can somehow speed up to twice the speed. In the example you give the person's arm would have to increase his speed by 150%. That may be possible when your trying to sling a 5kg boulder but when you get down to more realistic terms if you can already get to within 95% of your max acceleration with a two ounce stone, then slinging a 1 ounce stone might get you 5% more acceleration (or the top speed capable by your arm)  but at the cost of 50% the mass. And a whole lot of KE.
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #25 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 9:11pm
 
FWIW, Dohrewend emphasises greater momentum ie. higher mass at lower velocity, as being more lethal.
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #26 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 11:08pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 23rd, 2010 at 9:11pm:
FWIW, Dohrewend emphasises greater momentum ie. higher mass at lower velocity, as being more lethal.  

In boxing it tends to be the fast boxers with a quick jab that get more K.O.s than the big boxers with strong right hooks. To me it looks plausible that having more KE is the better choice, as long as the impact happens over a sufficiently long time. Who's Dohrewend? If he's a ballistics expert, physicist, gunsmith, etc. then I defer to his knowledge.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #27 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 11:23pm
 
Morphy wrote on Sep 23rd, 2010 at 7:01pm:
I don't think it's quite that simple...

Oh, it isn't by far. I'll admit that.

Morphy wrote on Sep 23rd, 2010 at 7:01pm:
This inverse relationship you have between your two equations is not accurate in a real world scenario... From a real world scenario, take two stones, one is 1 oz and the other is 2 oz. Both can be slung at near the same speeds even though one has 100% more mass then the other.

If the speeds that the projectiles can be slung at are near equal then we can arbitrarily say that the 2 oz. stone is a situation where you can have both high mass and velocity. Agreed?

I would only emphasize choosing a noticably smaller projectile when the larger one is massive enough that you cannot accelerate it as fast (or apply a large enough impulse during the throw) as the smaller projectile. Choosing the smaller projectile is also only advantageous if the impact is spread out over a certain ammount of time, but not spread out to the point of softening the blow. Also there are definitely exceptions where a huge stone would be better, like extremely close range or some kind of armor on the prey animal (like a turtle, armadillo, etc.). I'm an aerospace engineering student and I have absolutely no knowledge of anatomy (besides that the hip bone is connected to the leg bone) so I can't say anything about the torque produced by the arm, acceleration, or anything anatomically possible. I'll take your word for all of it. Like my crazy Calculus I professor says, "Don't write what you don't know!"
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #28 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 11:24pm
 
Dr Robert Dohrenwend, who wrote a pivotal article on slinging comparable to the supposedly equally famous (?) Korfmann article in Scientific American.

He talks about how lethal the sling is and comes up with some figures to support "lethality indexes" comparing the sling with other weapons. Interesting.

There was a thread on it just recently. I'll get the link.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1283723190/1#1
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Re: WHERE TO HIT DEER TO KILL WITH SLING just curi
Reply #29 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 11:28pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 23rd, 2010 at 11:24pm:
Dr Robert Dohrenwend, who wrote a pivotal article on slinging comparable to the supposedly equally famous (?) Korfmann article in Scientific American.

He talks about how lethal the sling is and comes up with some figures to support "lethality indexes" comparing the sling with other weapons. Interesting.

There was a thread on it just recently. I'll get the link.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1283723190/1#1

Then I respectfully withdraw my statements.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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