My last reservation is whether David could have slain Goliath with the sling. Maybe he could only find 5 suitable stones at that location in the time available.

Masi, I think you mean the Black Sea, not the Dead Sea, which is landlocked and fed by a river. I saw something on TV maybe 20 years ago on that subject. The Sumerians had the same basic story before the proto-Israelites. Good ol' Utnapishtim.

I think Goliath knew exactly what he was going up against.  I also think, contrary to Hollywood versions, he was treating David with a great deal of respect, he was advancing quickly with his shield up, probably covering the lower half of his face.  David hit him in the forehead because that was pretty much his only target.  He only carried five stones because he knew, one way or the other, the fight would be over quickly.  The head armor of the time was a boarskin cap shaped like a beehive, it would have come down to just above his eyebrows.  So David was shooting for an area on his face from just above his cheekbones to just over his eyebrows.  Any hit in that area from a decent sized rock would be instantly incapitating, it may or may not have been instantly fatal.  Pretty good shooting.  Bill

Dan wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:08pm:

Divine intervention or no, he was screwed. One doesn't advance towards sharpshooters with melee weapons and no stealth and relatively unimpressive cover, it doesn't end well, particularly if one is a large target.

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Well, no, to me the stories seem vastly different.

The Noah story is clearly intended as a "just-so" story.  Many people now believe it literally, but that requires supernatural intervention continuously throughout the story.  At any level, humans could not have done it unaided.  One person builds a boat larger than is possible today, with primitive tools?  One person gathers the entire world's animals, both predator and prey, and a small family cares for them for a year?  Then they magically get to their final destinations without leaving traces in between?  Water that didn't exist before or after arrives in quantities to cover the earth?  Certainly all of that is possible IF and ONLY IF you allow for God's hand at every step.  To think that the Noah story is straightforward is to wilfully suspend any kind of even casual analysis.  You have to believe in miracles to believe it actually happened.  Which is okay, that is what religion is all about. 

Contrast that to the David vs Goliath.  This one IS a perfectly straightforward athletic contest:  mobile light infantry with projectile weapons against immobile heavy infantry with armor and thrusting weapon.  One-on-one, the slinger should win at least 99% of the time.  Though we do have to remember there is a considerable difference in mental preparation between a trained warrior and a shepherd.  One is used to risking his life in battle, and unlikely to be all that scared of a skinny (though "comely") kid;  the other surely would have had some qualms. 

Bill Skinner wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2011 at 9:42am:

In my norwegian translations he ran after lions and bears that stole sheeps, beat them and tore the sheep from their mouth.
If they turned against him he beat them to death. 
Even if he used a club or staff of some kind instead of his fist it`s easy to assume he was not exactly a pushover confronted with anyone.

And for the number of stones and slinging and such I agree with kuggur slingdog, god, as must of us know him, definitively helps those who help themself.

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Sorry if I misunderstood.  I thought you were saying the Noah story was straightforward and believable, which I would have to disagree with (barring an enormous amount of supernatural intervention, which of course is possible.). 

I think maybe what you meant was just that Noah and the Flood are clearly described in the Bible, whether true or not; whereas dinosaurs are not described in the Bible, certainly not clearly anyway, but must be added in by interpreters.  ??

I think David against a Goliath is a nobrainer, given the choice of weapons.  (I get a rock that can kill you at 35 yards, you get a thrusting spear that can reach me at 3 yards.  Doh.)  A slinger against a dinosaur on the other hand seems doomed to become a meal.

And I know why he picked five stones, because I've picked rocks out of a stream bed myself.  There's a good one!  Wait, that one over there is better, grab it too.  Hey, what's that?  Really smooth, but not quite heavy enough, but might work.  Etc.   

 

timothy42b wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2011 at 12:13pm:


Well we are on the same page there, as an atheist I think the large parts of the bible are pretty unbelievable. I only called the story "straight forward", not believable. The David story on the other hand could be historical.

timothy42b wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2011 at 12:13pm:

Indeed what I meant, though not entirely, there wasn´t anything "added", people like Dan conclude there are Diosaurs in the bible from their interpretation of the unaltered text. As I said before, not an unreasonable interpretation if you take the word of the bible literally.

timothy42b wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2011 at 12:13pm:


Aaah, but do you hit that small target every  time at 35 yards? Under very stressfull conditions? Because if you miss, and I have the thrusting spear I will not give you much time to reload, I am already running towards you during the first shot you take, 35 yards are covered very quickly...
I say our David had balls of steel....
 

Assuming it happened as described, it being a lucky shot doesn't necessarily mean that it had to have been miraculous.  Also, Luis is a fantastic slinger, but that does not mean that David couldn't have been better, and of course, it doesn't actually give us a precise range for the shot, and it's not inconceivable that the available target was just a bit bigger than the impact sensor.

All of this is a moot point, because if the bible is assumed to be literally accurate in every detail, there were much more obvious miracles, and if it's not quite so accurate, then there's no particular reason to regard the account of David's victory as being sure proof of divine intervention.