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Why David chose five stones ,please read ! (Read 51063 times)
Knaight
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #135 - Sep 7th, 2011 at 4:32am
 
Morphy wrote on Sep 4th, 2011 at 12:20pm:
This is not the first time we know of in history that weapons like the sling and bow were considered "lesser" than "real weapons". Many of the knights of the middle ages considered the bow as a weapon without honor. A real man used armor, sword and shield. At least according to them.

Its more a matter of wealth really. The weapon that has been prized has always been the one that the fewest could afford, regardless of utility. Consider the arming sword, which was expensive for hundreds of years, and has been prized since that time - even though it isn't really any more effective than a spear, and is less effective in many situations. The bow was the same way, sure, they were somewhat difficult to make and acquire, but its not as if mass production of them was actually difficult. Now consider the sling, which basically anyone could make with anything. Its not a weapon of the wealthy elite, its a weapon of basically everyone, so it gets disregarded. Obviously, any real warrior would be in a phalanx with their expensive shield, or later some form of heavy cavalry or other*.

*I'm ignoring professional armies here, so much of Roman and Chinese history can basically be disregarded, as the troops were equipped en mass with what was given to them, including armor.
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Morphy
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #136 - Sep 7th, 2011 at 11:27pm
 
You may be right that that is part of it. Actually to be more inclusive I would say it's simply more of a pride thing.

Bling had something to do with it but so did the stories that were passed down from the beginning of time about a fighter or fighters that found themselves surrounded by their enemies and cut their way out. From the Bible, to the Arthurian legends to modern day movies like the Lord of the Rings,  the idea of coming face to face with your enemies and beating them by your superior skill and muscle has pretty much been ingrained in us from the beginning.
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Knaight
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #137 - Sep 11th, 2011 at 10:26pm
 
Morphy wrote on Sep 7th, 2011 at 11:27pm:
You may be right that that is part of it. Actually to be more inclusive I would say it's simply more of a pride thing.

Bling had something to do with it but so did the stories that were passed down from the beginning of time about a fighter or fighters that found themselves surrounded by their enemies and cut their way out. From the Bible, to the Arthurian legends to modern day movies like the Lord of the Rings,  the idea of coming face to face with your enemies and beating them by your superior skill and muscle has pretty much been ingrained in us from the beginning.

Yeah, certainly. Still, notice how ridiculously overrepresented expensive things are? There are a lot of mythical swords, and only a scant handful of mythological spears, or axes, and those almost universally date back to periods before the sword was even relevant in the area.
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Morphy
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #138 - Sep 12th, 2011 at 3:34am
 
Absolutely. I don't know about you, but I've been suckered in by a new toy in the past simply because it was more expensive then the next thing, therefore it had to be better right?...  I am ashamed to admit it, but there is definitely something to it.  Grin
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #139 - Sep 12th, 2011 at 10:47pm
 
Morphy wrote on Sep 12th, 2011 at 3:34am:
Absolutely. I don't know about you, but I've been suckered in by a new toy in the past simply because it was more expensive then the next thing, therefore it had to be better right?...  I am ashamed to admit it, but there is definitely something to it.  Grin

The expensive thing being seen as better than the effective utilitarian one? It can't be.
...
...
Nah. Nobody would ever do that.  Wink
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #140 - Sep 14th, 2011 at 10:52am
 
Morphy wrote on Sep 4th, 2011 at 12:20pm:
As far as breaking the terms of the duel, I think we are applying customs to them that they may not have had. Or at least were not so widespread as later times.

In the 18th and 19th centuries duels became extremely formal. But it's possible at this time it was just kill or be killed.


Duels were already very formal as early (if not earlier) as Viking times, with the holmgang. Formalised tests of martial prowess to prove issues of justice, with specific rules. It was never something to be entered into lightly as to fail may lead to being proved wrong in the eyes of the "law" and/or killed. If you survived the duel you could still be executed as the "guilty" party. Formalise judicial duelling features strongly in the italian treatise of Fiore dei Liberi, the earliest copy dates back to approx. 1409.

Ok, there's still a huge jump back to Biblical times.
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Morphy
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #141 - Sep 14th, 2011 at 11:21am
 
Snowcelt, that's true. Who knows? There is so many things about that story I would like to know more about. What type of stones did David prefer? What type of sling and length did he use for the battle? And more than anything else, what style of throw did he use? I would love to know that one...
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #142 - Nov 15th, 2011 at 10:59pm
 
Knaight wrote on Sep 15th, 2010 at 9:44am:
Dan wrote on Jun 19th, 2010 at 11:34am:
I found the answer to why David chose 5 stones in the book: The Signature of God by Grant Jeffery.
David did not lack faith in the Supernatural power of God, Goliath had 4 brothers, all of which were Giants !  Shocked In the book of 2nd Samuel chapter 21:15-22 ( please feel free to read it yourself ) it mentions 2nd Samuel 21:22 "These four (Goliaths brothers) were decendants of Rapha in Gath , and they fell to the hands of David and his servants (soldiers). Try finding sombody knowadays that can make a head shot on a target 9ft tall 5 times in a row!

Please do more reaserch in the topic by reading 2 Samuel 21 and also pick up the well written Signature of God by Grant Jeffery which also answeres many other questions in Bible text.

9 feet tall is unlikely. What's worth noting is that the average height at that point would have been low, if they were even 6 feet tall then they would be bigger and heavier than most everyone else, with reach to boot, big advantages. And strictly speaking it would be easier to make a head shot on a bigger target, plus there are still people around who can pull that off.

The bible is of dubious validity as an objective historical resource, not only has it gone through a great many translations, it is a heavily biased piece to begin with. Goliath would have been exaggerated as tougher than he was, David would have been exaggerated as less physically impressive, so as to make the story seem more miraculous. Its likely there is a grain of truth in that story, which boils down to in a war, the Israelites fielded a slinger as champion who took down someone who had a reputation as very dangerous. With five stones, and lighter armor, multiple tries would have been near guaranteed, though extreme bravery is still needed.

Furthermore, the cited incident with Goliath's brothers occurred after David had become a leader and acquired soldiers, so the stones collected in the initial battle are completely irrelevant anyways. Its another point that serves largely to point out that A) Gods on our side, look at this champion, and B) Seriously, look at this champion, he's pretty awesome.



The original text from the Dead Sea Scrolls has Goliath at 2 meters
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #143 - Nov 16th, 2011 at 10:13pm
 
Mac wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 10:59pm:
The original text from the Dead Sea Scrolls has Goliath at 2 meters


Interesting. I was unaware that the Judaeans measured things in meters. Or the Israelites in the time of David.
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Dan
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #144 - Nov 17th, 2011 at 12:58pm
 
HurlinThom wrote on Nov 16th, 2011 at 10:13pm:
Mac wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 10:59pm:
The original text from the Dead Sea Scrolls has Goliath at 2 meters


Interesting. I was unaware that the Judaeans measured things in meters. Or the Israelites in the time of David.

 Grin


If you believe in the account of David and Goliath in the Bible as non fiction (you should cause it is), Goliath wasn't just "a big guy" he had a little nephilim genetics in him as did his brothers, meaning he was really a giant.
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #145 - Nov 17th, 2011 at 3:31pm
 
HurlinThom wrote on Nov 16th, 2011 at 10:13pm:
Mac wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 10:59pm:
The original text from the Dead Sea Scrolls has Goliath at 2 meters


Interesting. I was unaware that the Judaeans measured things in meters. Or the Israelites in the time of David.

The Dead Sea Scrolls had Goliath atjust over 4 cubits instead of 6, but I've said before how I think that any modern measures for Goliath's height need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Masiakasaurus wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 7:08pm:
Greenmanbacchus wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 6:21pm:
we're not sure exactly how many inches the referenced 'cubit' translates to. We'll never get to the bottom of that, but somewhere between 7'5" and 9' seems likely. I've heard 12'....but honestly...if we're taking about a 'healthy giant' rather than a pituitary giant, 7'5"  is not an incredible height.

A cubit is the length of a forearm and a span is the width of a spread hand, from thumb tip to pinkie finger tip. The first recorded cubit was the Egyptian cubit, slightly longer than the average forearm and was probably based on the cubit of a taller pharaoh. Jewish cubits were borrowed from Greek, or more likely Babylonian cubits in other cases so they can be assumed to apply here.

Saying 7 to 9 feet overlooks the fact that the average height and arm span, and by derivation cubit and span, were shorter in antiquity than in modern times because of dietary and lifestyle differences. We may not know how tall Goliath was but we absolutely should not use modern sized cubits and spans as a reference.

Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:39am:
I like the fact that the guy is trying to make people think critically about the story in an actual historical sense, but he makes 1 critical mistake that seems to crop up everywhere. He's assuming how long the lengths of measure are! There are multiple types of cubit, and Jewish people had a tendency of borrowing them from all over. If you read the wiki article on cubits it makes you think "okay, so they used this measure during this period and after that they started using this one," but in reality different tribes used different measures of cubit depending on where they lived and who they traded with the most. The person who wrote down the measure of Goliath could have been from south Judea and traded with Egyptians (cubit was between 518.5 and 525 mm) and the measure we think is standard could have been from Northern Israel which they used because they traded with Mesopotamians (cubit=533.4 mm). That leads to an error as great as 89.4 mm (3.5") when measuring Goliath's height. 3.5 inches may not be much, but it's the difference between being considered average (5'10") and tall (6'1.5").

We know that the ancient Jews used the Babylonian cubit at one time (428 mm) and the largest cubit I know of is the Hashimi cubit (650.2 mm), so if someone accidentally used the hashimi cubit to figure the height of Goliath and used the 6 cubit measure the possible error could be as high as 1333.2 mm (52.5") if the Babylonian cubit was the correct measure.

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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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HurlinThom
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #146 - Nov 17th, 2011 at 5:58pm
 
One reason for the near-universal adoption of the metric system is that various countries would use the same name for a slightly different amount. Like an Imperial quart versus a US quart. One's larger than a liter and the other is smaller.

The cited differences in cubits is instructive. If the definition of a cubit is the distance from the elbow to somewhere in the middle finger (tip, first joint, wherever) those Hashemites must have been part Orangutan. (This is a joke, all you literalists.)

And I still want to know where the height data originated. Philistine publicity? I doubt Saul's side measured him, especially while his head was still in place.

But the story must be true because you can't prove it's not, right? (Irony here.)

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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #147 - Nov 18th, 2011 at 12:09am
 
Let's not get into the, "It's a total myth" v. the "It's in the Bible therefore it must be true", controversy. Let's merely discuss it on face value as recorded. Essentially the story is about a little guy with a sling who defeated a big guy who didn't have one. Perfectly plausible as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly how big Goliath was is unclear and really largely irrelevant. Even other figures are probably glosses added by the writer. For example would the armies have faced off for 40 days without any action? Unlikely. How would they have been supplied? Imagine how boring it would be just hanging around in camp waiting for Goliath to do his 'defiance number' every day. Four days, maybe even a week, but not 40.
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HurlinThom
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #148 - Nov 18th, 2011 at 4:37am
 
I once heard that 40 was a sort of literary device in the Bible used to signify "a lot", as in raining 40 days and nights and wandering in the desert for 40 years.
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Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #149 - Nov 18th, 2011 at 12:08pm
 
Aussie wrote on Nov 18th, 2011 at 12:09am:
Let's not get into the, "It's a total myth" v. the "It's in the Bible therefore it must be true", controversy. Let's merely discuss it on face value as recorded. Essentially the story is about a *little guy with a sling who defeated a big guy who didn't have one. Perfectly plausible as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly how big Goliath was is unclear and really largely irrelevant. Even other figures are probably glosses added by the writer. For example would the armies have faced off for 40 days without any action? Unlikely. How would they have been supplied? Imagine how boring it would be just hanging around in camp waiting for Goliath to do his 'defiance number' every day. Four days, maybe even a week, but not 40.

* Little guy, or not.  Remember Saul, head higher than the other Isrealites, offered to lend David his armor.  Unless this was done out of scorn, it would have had a chance to fit David, which would have to be a big guy to make the idea come up Wink.
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