Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12
Send Topic Print
Why David chose five stones ,please read ! (Read 17060 times)
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1363
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #120 - Jun 22nd, 2011, 10:45pm
 
Let us get back to the actual fight.  Has there been a Philistine grave or two that has been excavated and the contents posted somewhere? Preferably with some pictures.  What did the armor actually look like?  The references cite some pictures in Egypt, from roughly the same time frame, they may or may not be correct in the actual area where the fight took place.  
 
The only pictures of armor from that time frame that I have seen looked like a tube skirt, made of bands of copper or bronze that covered the torso to about the knee, it was flared, it looked like the guy was wearing a bell.  The helmet was made of boar hide and covered with tushes.  That's the long teeth that come out of the bottom of the boars' mouth.  That would leave the face wide open.
 
The Philistines just watched some goat smelling shepard boy use a peasant's weapon to kill their champion before the duel actually began, in their place, I would have been enraged and charged, I wouldn't have shown any mercy to someone who mocked my honor and my champion.  Slings were common in that time and used extensivily in warfare, they weren't anything new, why would they run away if a slinger got in a lucky hit?  Bill
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile   IP Logged
Aussie
Past Moderator
*


Joined Nov. 1, 2006
 Luke 14:14

Posts: 3265
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #121 - Jun 22nd, 2011, 11:46pm
 
You have touched on an interesting point. You say that as a Philistine you would have been enraged by David's 'dirty trick' victory and have attacked the Israelites in a rage of vengeance. Actually according to the pre-fight deal the losers were supposed to submit to the victors without a fight but neither your vengeful attack or a submission took place. The Philistines lost heart and ran pursued by the Israelites who slaughtered many of them. Evidently the loss of their invicible champion was too much for the Philistines. I expect Goliath's armour bearer was leading the pack. Seeing his master go down right next to him would have been quite a shock.
 
However the really interesting thing that puzzled me for years is the comparative ease with which Goliath allowed himself to be defeated. Perhaps the notion that the sling was universally used and understood is incorrect, or at least its use as a close-in accurate weapon.  
 
In lots of re-enactments David is shown as telling Saul how he will defeat Goliath with his sling. In fact the Bible records no such conversation. David speaks of killing a lion and a bear with his staff not a sling. In fact the first reference to the the sling is when David selects the smooth river stones prior to the battle. Goliath berates David for coming armed with a stick, a reference to the staff, not the sling at all. Could he not see tht David had a sling in his hand? Or did he merely discount it as of no consequence?
 
The Philistines were not a shepherding people as I understand. They may never have seen the sling used in such close combat, only as 'long distance artillery' where slingers shot only at a body of troops not at individual targets.
 
There is now speculation that David hit Goliath on the knee not on the forehead. Perhaps so. Whichever is the case it is clear that the disabling shot was close-range and accurate, something that Goliath did not expect.
Back to top
 
 

Cranks are little things that make revolutions.
View Profile   IP Logged
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1363
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #122 - Jun 23rd, 2011, 8:58pm
 
So, possibly, from a distance, it would look to the Philistines that David waved his arm and pointed at Goliath and he did a face plant.  That would mean that David obviously was guided by God and that they should go someplace else before he pointed at them.  Interesting, if the Philistines were famaliar with Egyptians, slings were pretty common in the Nile Delta, so it shouldn't have been a complete suprise.  And the Philistines came from the Aegean and slings were pretty common there, also.  Bill
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile   IP Logged
Crow Hat
Descens
***


Slinging is an
addiction.

Posts: 133
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #123 - Jun 23rd, 2011, 9:51pm
 
This thread took a while to catch up with, and all for nothing I guess.
 
Anyway,
I would imagine David and Goliath was exaggerated, David was probably a regular sized person, and he would have denied the armor because it would have limited his mobility, or it just didn't fit. Maybe Goliath was a larger person, or maybe he was a regular sized person, and he was exaggerated too. For all we know, they were two regular sized people and to make the story more gripping, they wrote it the way it is written. Maybe Goliath was a giant, and David was in the Israeli army at the time, maybe he took down Goliath with one shot into the crowd and struck fear into the enemy, to make the story more gripping, maybe they said it was one-on-one.
 
The bible is mostly exaggerated in my opinion. I'm agnostic, and my personal belief is that the old testament is false, and the new testament was a mix of lies, and coincidences that were said to be God's work. I hope my opinions don't offend anyone, I'm just sharing what I believe, and some of my theories about David and Goliath.
Back to top
 
 

"Simply because you can breathe doesn't mean you're alive, or that you really live." - Tim McIlrath
Email View Profile   IP Logged
Aussie
Past Moderator
*


Joined Nov. 1, 2006
 Luke 14:14

Posts: 3265
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #124 - Jun 23rd, 2011, 11:56pm
 
Quote from Bill Skinner on Jun 23rd, 2011, 8:58pm:
So, possibly, from a distance, it would look to the Philistines that David waved his arm and pointed at Goliath and he did a face plant.  That would mean that David obviously was guided by God and that they should go someplace else before he pointed at them.  Interesting, if the Philistines were famaliar with Egyptians, slings were pretty common in the Nile Delta, so it shouldn't have been a complete suprise.  And the Philistines came from the Aegean and slings were pretty common there, also.  Bill

 
Interesting possibility about them not being able to seeing that David had slung a stone. I've had people not notice that I was using a sling, they just thought I was a really powerful throw.
Back to top
 
 

Cranks are little things that make revolutions.
View Profile   IP Logged
timothy42b
Tiro
**




Posts: 47
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #125 - Jun 24th, 2011, 8:26am
 
Quote from Aussie on Jun 23rd, 2011, 11:56pm:
Quote from Bill Skinner on Jun 23rd, 2011, 8:58pm:
So, possibly, from a distance, it would look to the Philistines that David waved his arm and pointed at Goliath and he did a face plant.  That would mean that David obviously was guided by God and that they should go someplace else before he pointed at them.  Interesting, if the Philistines were famaliar with Egyptians, slings were pretty common in the Nile Delta, so it shouldn't have been a complete suprise.  And the Philistines came from the Aegean and slings were pretty common there, also.  Bill


Interesting possibility about them not being able to seeing that David had slung a stone. I've had people not notice that I was using a sling, they just thought I was a really powerful throw.

 
Possible, but I don't buy it.  These were experienced warriors in a culture that used the sling.  
 
I would like to know more about what armor would be common at that time.  
 
I'd like to point out that this was a duel, not combat.  In combat the only rule is survival, but duels require that both parties honor some set of rules.  ("seconds" keep both parties from cheating)  One could argue that David in effect brought a gun to a sword fight, which would be quite an ethical violation and may have horrified some present, even on his side.  Could that also have contributed to Goliath's apparent contempt and overconfidence?
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 4937
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #126 - Jun 24th, 2011, 10:29am
 
Possibly, though we don't really know the terms of the duel. It could have been "use whatever means necessary to eliminate your opponent," and both armies agreed to not cheat or attack afterwards.
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile WWW siamesetomahawk masiaka   IP Logged
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1363
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #127 - Jun 24th, 2011, 12:12pm
 
Timothy42b, you make some good points, to me the story is interesting because it is probably one of the better late Bronze/early Iron Age stories that survived to this day.  The problem is seperating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and trying to tell what actually happened.  One problem moderns have is a lack of understanding.  We don't understand the mind set, the weapons, the tactics, or any of the personal baggage that makes somone fight to the death or run away in panic, back then.  One way is to get a very diverese group to discuss it, hopefully without coming to blows, you must give everones' ideas equal merit, even though you disagree wildly with them.  Bill
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile   IP Logged
Dan
Interfector Viris Spurii
SlingingGuide Moderator
*****


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3400
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #128 - Jun 24th, 2011, 4:51pm
 
Bill is right all of the ideas on this thread do have a possiblity to them and not to mention this was definitley successful on getting a ton of info and opinions on David and Goliath though I imagine they will never all match up exactly. Which means we can all keep learning from each other.  Smiley
 
A lot of it will be spliting a frogs hair 4 ways but, as long as you learned somthing it was worth it.
Back to top
 
 

1 Samuel 14:7

"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8

SALVATION: By Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.
View Profile   IP Logged
varangianslinger
Novicius
*


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 6
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #129 - Aug 31st, 2011, 10:36am
 
Quote from Knaight on Jun 15th, 2011, 4:15am:
Quote from HurlinThom on Jun 13th, 2011, 12:16pm:


I agree entirely, religion isn't something people change their views on easily. On a side note, there are several other interpretations worth looking at, including a propaganda piece. Think about how this would look from an outsiders perspective at the time, it might well be along these lines: "We have shepherds so good at slinging, they can put a rock into a man's forehead in one try. Do you really want to mess with us?".

 
this iswhat i think. more importantly it also points out to potential invaders that EVERY sheperd, andfarmer, is a potentially lethal enemy. meaning they will be constantly harrassed. arguably the israelites were the bronze age viet cong.  
 
actually this reminds meof a line attributd to the swiss  
Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home." http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/stagnaro5.html
several times the interview/ article arges that any nazi attack on switzerland wold encounter 'a sniper behind every tree and every rock
 
back to david and golioth,. remember also that david uttered a curse of sorts towards golioth as well
 
David said "This day the LORD will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel",  so it would also look to the philistine army sanding back and watching that he struck golioth down with a curse.
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile   IP Logged
jlasud
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****


Programming stones

Posts: 1661
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #130 - Sep 2nd, 2011, 7:59am
 
About David not wanting to use armor,what use that be for a slinger against a big warrior with a sword?If a slinger gets in close combat,he won't be alive for too long even wearing armor that is even limiting his movement(assyrian slingers are shown wearing lamellar armor and helmets)
About the philistines not knowing what hit Goliath,i seriously doubt it was the case..Slings must have been a common sight and when David turned up someone surely replied loudly that a shepherd with a sling faces Goliath.Many of the soldiers must have heard it,seen it,or the gossip reached the lines in the back.
Back to top
 
 

Respect existance or expect resistance!
Email View Profile   IP Logged
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1363
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #131 - Sep 2nd, 2011, 6:54pm
 
So, if slings were so effective, why was everybody laughing at David?  Bill
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile   IP Logged
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 4937
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #132 - Sep 2nd, 2011, 8:03pm
 
Quote from Bill Skinner on Sep 2nd, 2011, 6:54pm:
So, if slings were so effective, why was everybody laughing at David?  Bill

I agree with you. David brought a knife to a gun fight, pun intended. Wink
Back to top
 
 
Email View Profile WWW siamesetomahawk masiaka   IP Logged
Knaight
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****


Slinging Tennis
Balls!

Posts: 1237
Gender: male
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #133 - Sep 4th, 2011, 1:33am
 
Quote from Bill Skinner on Sep 2nd, 2011, 6:54pm:
So, if slings were so effective, why was everybody laughing at David?  Bill

The typical situation people would have seen them used in is army scale skirmishing and volley fire. That doesn't translate to sniping ability, particularly when the number of shots you can expect to get is extremely low.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****


Checkmate

Posts: 2432
Re: Why David chose five stones ,please read !
Reply #134 - Sep 4th, 2011, 12:20pm
 
One thing seems clear to me, as Bill and Masi pointed out. The people there did not take David or his weapons seriously. It seems like not even the Israelite took David's sling and staff seriously, otherwise why were they trying to give him "real armor and weapons"?  
 
To me the most obvious answer is pride. As the old saying goes, pride goeth before a fall. No one took David or his chosen fighting style seriously and Goliath paid a heavy price for it. How many times in history has the favored side lost because they underestimated their opponent? Put simply... quite a bit.  
 
This is not the first time we know of in history that weapons like the sling and bow were considered "lesser" than "real weapons". Many of the knights of the middle ages considered the bow as a weapon without honor. A real man used armor, sword and shield. At least according to them.  
 
As far as breaking the terms of the duel, I think we are applying customs to them that they may not have had. Or at least were not so widespread as later times.  
 
In the 18th and 19th centuries duels became extremely formal. But it's possible at this time it was just kill or be killed.
Back to top
 
 

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..."

View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12
Send Topic Print