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How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army? (Read 7696 times)
Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #45 - Dec 4th, 2010, 11:29am
 
The question of whether there are any cohortes of slingers attested is probably answerable easily. Will post if I find anything. In the meantime, i note the good old C. Cheesman, The Auxilia of The Roman Imperial Army (1914), 132:
 
"If there existed cohorts of slingers with this distinctive uniform, we should exect to find cohortes funditorum or libritorum on the analogy of hte cohortes sagittariorum. It appears. on the contrary fro, a passage in Hadrian's speech to t he African army, that sligning formed part of the general training of all the auxilia"
 
--he's talking about the Traj. column slingers
 
-- he's referrng to the speech of hadrian to the cohors VI Commagenorum, where he praises their slinging (on horseback, it seems ? Discussed at many points in this forum)
 
Dunno if cohortes of funditores have since been found
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #46 - Dec 4th, 2010, 11:31am
 
...and here it is!  Cheesy

 
 
...and more glans from Forum Sempronii (now Fossombrone), dating IIIrd Century b.C.:

 
I'd like to add a last consideration about Piceni: they were a tipycal Italic population, ruled by "princeps" since VIIth, VIth Century b.C.: élite warriors and warchiefs. In more than 3'000 excavated tombs, we've found plenty of iron swords, knives, axes, maces and spears, expecially a long type of scimitar that is effective only by cavalry - but just 21 arrowhead, in 2 tombs! This shows some avversion to archery, that was, perhaps, considered just a way of hunting, and was not suitable for noble warriors - as it was in many cultures. I'm sure that even sling was considered in that way, and that may be one of the reasons why nobody talks about slingsmen - except for very capable ones like Balears  Smiley
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Mauro.
 
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #47 - Dec 4th, 2010, 11:35am
 
Quote from Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010, 11:21am:
Thanks. But do they have a sling in each hand ?

 
Thearos, I see two of them having something in both hands - and that's ok, but may be they have a sling in one, and a bag of glans in the other - the relief is ruined and does not help its lecture  undecided
Mauro.
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #48 - Dec 4th, 2010, 11:41am
 
Now that's a cool idea... Tongue
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #49 - Dec 4th, 2010, 12:14pm
 
Hallo!
Personally, I'd put my glans bag in my belt, but those people doesn't seem to wear belts.... so let's go off-topic again: start supposing  Grin Grin
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #50 - Dec 4th, 2010, 1:23pm
 
The reason why the question if the Piceni were good slingers or not is relevant to the question of numbers of "Piceni slingers" in the Roman army. If they were not specially famed for it, it's likely that there weren't  many Piceni slingers in the Republican armies. (and I'm started to get pretty sure that there are no references to Piceni slingers at Cannae or Trasimene, but am ready to be proved wrong)
 
Now:  
THird century BC and later A consular army is 2 legions of citizens + same number of Italians. Roman citizens: 10 K infantry. Most of this is heavies. A small proportion is "velites", light armed. Mostly shield and javelin men-- we know this from Polybios. There may have been slingers-- Fundibularius found a reference. But it's going to be mixed missile troops, slingers not dominant. Maybe citizen archers. Italians: 10 K. Picenians ? Yes, some-- but also Samnites, Marsians, Lucanians, etc. Of these, most are presumably heavies, again; some lights, and some slingers (among the javelin men, stone throwers, archers, etc). On top of that, any ad hoc allied bodies you can get.  
 
Conclusion ? In the C3rd, in either consular army (20,000 + men), there's going to be a small number of slingers from the forces themselves (perhaps less than 1000?), fighting alongside their ROman and Italian friends; and perhaps some allied slingers, who will be specialists and fight separately. Hence the bodies you read about in Livy or Polybios: 500 slingers, 1000 slingers-- on top of the normal complement.  
 
2 consular armies. On average, during this bit of the Republic, during the campaigning season, you might count at the most a few thousand slingers.  
 
 
Now were the Piceni unsung slingers in the Italian contingents ? Were there many of them ?
 
1. The Ascoli etc sling bullets date to the Social War. It shows the Italians and Romans slinging at each other, especially in siege context. No indication that they're particularly into slinging.  
 
2. The Ascoli relief (the EUR museum has a cast, I assume it's in Ascoli). I don't know if these are slingers. THe format looks like the "fregi d'armi" size of late Republic. But the :slings" really don't look like slings, and I suspect they're loin-clothed dancers.  
 
3. The C3rd sling bullets are very interesting. WOuld be nice to know context.  
 
 
 
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #51 - Dec 6th, 2010, 4:35pm
 
Hallo Thearos!
I've spent some time looking for more informations; I suggest to forget Asculum and the Social War for now, and focus our efforts on the IIIrd Century  Smiley
 
I've studied a lot about those older sling bullets, here's what I've found.
Those gans have been found near the ancient Forum Sempronii, now known as Fossombrone. It is a small town located in the North of my Region. But now, a brief history of it. My region was populated by the Piceni from IXth to about Vth Century b.C. Then the Celts came from the North, and conquered about half of the territory - the borderline was the Esino river, 20 kilometers North of Ancona, my town. Then Forum Sempronii fall into Celtic sphere.  
The fact is, that there are no evidences of this: excavations in Forum Sempronii lead to Roman stratography and, deeper, directly to a typical Picenian village. There is no sign of Celts. The situation is obscure, and archaeologists are waiting for further excavations; personally, I suppose that the Celts did not modify so much the Picenian village, maybe they just collected taxes from it, or something similar. They were more interested in shore villages, and in fact Fanun Fortunae (Fano), Pisaurum (Pesaro) and Sena Gallica (Senigallia) shows typical Celtic evidences: they were ports from where Celts did trade with Greece.  
Back to Forum Sempronii: so, we don't know exactly when the Celts "conquered" it, but we know for sure that it must have been sometime between the Vth Century. In 295 b.C., about a hundred year later, the Celts were beated by the Roman Army, in the Sentinum Battle, and their territory (Nort of the Esino river) was conquered by Rome, and from now on it will be know has Ager Gallicus.  
 
These glans are from IIIrd Century - and nobody talks about any battle in Forum Sempronii. At the moment, we don't know a thing about who has thrown those glans, and who was their target. Piceni rebelling against the Celts? Celts trying to keep Forum Sempronii against the Romans?  
We can only guess  Sad They only show once more that the sling was used in my Region.
I am sorry I haven't been able to help you on your researches, but I'll study more and keep on trying! Cheesy
Good afternoon,
Mauro.
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #52 - Dec 7th, 2010, 4:43am
 
How fascinating, great post. Are the Fossombrone ones inscribed ?  
 
(what a beautiful set of names: Fossombrone, Senigallia, Fano. I saw a photograph of Fossombrone in the Archeologia nelle Marche book-- it looks absolutely magnificent site, hill with the Appenines snowy behind)
 
I wonder if this idea-- lead bullets of this particular shape-- is travelling westwards from Greece-- either via trans-Adriatic contacts, or via Sicily (and Dionysios I founded Ancona, if I'm not mistaken).  
 
Big caches of sling bullets often reflect precise events, such as siege or stockpiling for military events (e.g. sling bullets at Numantia, or Athens in 86, or indeed Asculum in 90-89). The scenarios you sketch out are v. interesting. Did the N. Italian Celts use lead sling bullets ? That's a thought...
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #53 - Dec 7th, 2010, 11:36am
 
I believe they tended rather to use baked clay or pebbles rather than lead.
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #54 - Dec 7th, 2010, 3:34pm
 
Here I am!
I haven't been able to find any study about the Fossombrone glans, and I have only the picture I've posted - at least those glans doesn't seem inscribed. But they're exposed at the Archaeological Museum of that town and I'll go there and take some pics as soon as possible. I'll even buy the Museum's catalogue; perhaps there will be more informations. In the meantime, I'll ask some teacher of my university, one of them is digging a Roman town near Fossombrone and perhaps he'd know something useful!
 
I believe that lead glans are a Greek invention, but take this as a mere supposition. The oldest date I've found for an Italian lead glan is the IVth Century - that glan has been found in Southern Emilia Romagna, ancient Etrurian territory, and it is known that Etrurians were the main trading partner of Greeks. But I absolutely don't know a thing about glans foundings in South Italy, which was Magna Grecia, nor I have any information about glans in Northen Italy - North from Emilia Romagna it was all Celtic territory, more or less. I just know that Venetian slingers fought against Piceni, but this lead us again in the Ist Century b.C., and it is unimportant.
The reason why I believe that Greeks imported lead glans in Italy is that, in a Greek temple in Puglia (South East Italy), archaeologist have found a mould for lead glans - the mould has been dated to Vth Century, and is the oldest evidence, that I know, of lead glans.
 
About the Italian Celts: it's possible that they used lead bullets, for that there were not deep differences in weaponry, between the Italic tribes. More, the adoption of Greece's way of life concerned even weaponry, and lead to some standards: big rounded bronze shields, long iron swords for cavalry, and some others. This can be seen in warrior's tombs and in bronze small figures of heroes and divinities (such as Marte, Greek's war God). But I don't know enough about Celts to say something for sure  embarrassed
 
Wirocu, I can bet that everyone used clay, pebble and lead bullets - the sling being one of the cheapest weapon ever invented  Wink - and this makes slingers hard to be recognized when excaving a battle's terrain  Sad
 
You're right Thearos, Dionysios I founded Ancona in about 385 b.C.  Wink But before him, there was a Picenian village dating about VIIIth Century and, more ancient, a Bronze Age village. In the centre of Ancona, on the main hill, a lot of flint tools and blades have been found, dating at the Neolithic Age. There's a long valley that links Ancona with Monte Conero, 15 kilometers South: I want to make some archaeological reconnaissance in that valley, to see if I can found some flint or stone tools - that could mean that the Neolithic people living near the Conero, have moved to my town. (I live exactly in that way, and I've found a Neolithic flint blade 700 meters from my house!).
 
What do you like about Fossombrone, Senigallia and Fano? Tell me, perhaps I can tell you more about them!  Cheesy Where do you live? How do you have read Archeologia nelle Marche?
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #55 - Dec 7th, 2010, 6:04pm
 
Nice names, they just sound nice. "Fossombrone"...
 
Do you have a reference for the mould in Puglia ? Those moulds I know are all Hellenistic in date (from Greece), as far as I can tell. In as much as they're dated at all. One from Delos, one from Eretria, one from Athens...
 
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #56 - Dec 7th, 2010, 6:07pm
 
Anyway, you must be right, the /archaeological evidence you show is compelling-- there's an Italian tradition of slinging with lead (presumably imitating the Greeks). Maybe they use it against the Hallstattian Celtic warrior societies in the north, maybe against each other; and no doubt, in the ranks of the "socii", the Italians fighting alongside the Roman citizen legions, there are Italian slingers with lead. Time to look at Livy again.  
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #57 - Dec 7th, 2010, 6:47pm
 
Hallo Thearos!
Sorry if I'm late in answering, but I consult my books and the web before writing to you, because I want to give you the most exact information!
 
Unfortunately, I can't find nothing about that mould, but I've found a .pdf file in my archive that shows a slinger, as it was represented in Vth Century b.C.'s pottery. The ware has been found in Naples, and that was a Greek colony: Nea Polis, New Town.
And I'm reading another interesting .pdf, published by a Sicilian university teacher, about inscribed lead glans found in Sicily, another Region that was colonized by Greeks! A lot of their glans, dating IIIrd Century b.C., probably report the name of slingers squadron's commander, serving with Carthago during the war against Rome. One of the glans has the name of a commander that seem to be involved into both Sagunto and Cannae Battles!
And, lastly, another ex-voto from an Ellenistic sanctuary: dated Vth Century, in Gravisca, near Tarquinia (Lazio Region, not far from Rome), comes the result of lead fusion: a lead "tree" with 5 glans attached - this is what you get after putting liquid lead between two moulds and you open them.
 
Unfortunately, all those .pdfs are in Italian; but, if you like, I can send them to you - and help you in translating them if you'd need!
 
It seems that Piceni slingers were not the ones; perhaps they had Etrurian, Sabin, Sannitics mates  Smiley  
Slinging must have been very practiced! They seem to have been those unnamed soldiers who fought side-by-side with those noblemens of which we discover the graves.
 
 
Ready to help, just ask!
Mauro.
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #58 - Dec 8th, 2010, 11:21am
 
Thanks. Mauro
 
.pdfs  not necessary for now, I usually can find archaeological publications. Do you have a reference for the lead "tree" from Gravisca ? I don't know that one (not listed in Ducrey and Brelaz, Anikte Kunst 46 (2003) 101-2. The C5th dating is what intrigues me; the earliest sling bullets I know must date to the 390s. There are a few in N. Greek contexts which are usually said to be C5th, but which I suspect to be stratigraphical intrusions.  
 
With many thanks
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #59 - Dec 9th, 2010, 6:11pm
 
Hallo, Thearos!
 
About Gravisca, I've found a very interesting bibliography; I'd like to send it to you!  
In that particular site, the "tree" is not a stratigraphical intrusion, for that Gravisca was an emporion with many foundries, where iron, bronze and lead where worked. The "tree" in particular has been found near a forge, in the so-called "Epsilon" building.
 
I help you with pleasure, if I can; let me know how can I send you the complete bibliography about Gravisca!  Wink
Greetings,
Mauro.
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