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How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army? (Read 27622 times)
Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #30 - Dec 3rd, 2010 at 7:17pm
 
What the evidence for Piceni slingers ?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #31 - Dec 3rd, 2010 at 9:38pm
 
Hallo! Basically, the evidences for Piceni slingers are limited to literature (Polibio and Pilinio, "Historiae"), and in a lot of lead glans - a very huge amount of them can be seen in our museums, and can still be found in the fields around the most important town of the ancient region - like Ascoli Piceno (Ausclum) and Fermo (Firmum Picaena).
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #32 - Dec 3rd, 2010 at 9:59pm
 
Thanks. Do you have any specific references to Picenian slingers ? I can't find any in Polybios (he mentions twice Picenum, in the form "Pikentine", 2.21, and once the "land of the Pikenoi", 3.86). I've never heard of Picene slingers.

(On legions: Pol. 3.107 tells us, indeed that the normal consular army is 2 legions + the same amount of allies-- but these are drawn from all of the allies. At Cannae, it's the exceptional complement of 8 legions = 40,000 men + 40,000 allies. At any rate I don't see how you get a figure of 10,000 Piceni ? What's the proportional reasoning you're using ?)

(Not sure where the pop. figure of 360,000 Piceni comes from. You could, I suppose, divide it in two to get the male population, 180,000, and then feed that into a population pyramid to try to figure out the number of men of fighting age, say 18-40. But I still wonder what the source is). To calculate a "proportion of slingers" seems to me even trickier (the allied troops taken by the Romans: are they structured like a legion, i.e. with 1/3 lights, or differently ?)



Thanks for the reference re. sling bullets in Ascoli museum, v interesting. Any ideas of date or context ? (Civil war ?)— Actually, these must be the famous ones, published in CIL (and earlier by Zangemeister), including the famous "feri Pomp(eium)".

Are these still being found in fields ?

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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #33 - Dec 3rd, 2010 at 10:10pm
 
The figure is from Pliny NH 3.13.

The sling bullets from Ascoli may come from the battle of Asculum (89 BC), during the Social War. In other words, the profusion of lead bullets does not reflect any Picene prowess with the sling, but slingers in the ranks of the Roman army that fought against the Italian rebels. Not sure if this works for Firmum ?
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #34 - Dec 3rd, 2010 at 10:38pm
 
More thoughts (and apologies for the triple post). The sling bullets must come from the operations during 89 BC, when Popmpeius Strabo led an army against the Italian rebels. His base was Firmum Picenum, ahd he besieged Asculum; the sling bullets of Ascoli must be those of the besieged, at least in part. All this in Appian's account of the Civil Wars; the ullets published in CIL 9.

Still not convinced that the Piceni are famed slingers (no mention of this in Strabo 5.4, though he's very big on the warlikeness of the various tribes around the Piceni), as opposed to saying that "slings and lead bullets were used by Italians, and specifically the people of Asculum, in 89 BC"-- as in many ancient wars and sieges...
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #35 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 4:04am
 
I think that there must have been a very significant number of specialist cohorts of slingers in the Roman army because of the massive abundancy of evidence, archaeological and historical.

I will deal the second century CE, at the height of Roman power. The Roman army comprised roughly 300,000 men, of which approximately half were auxiliary troops. The vast majority of these auxilia were heavy infantry very like the legions, but the auxilia also comprised cavalry, specialist light infantry and missiles - let's estimate these specialist supporting units to make up maybe a third of the auxiliary army - about fifty thousand men. This would make them about a sixth of the whole Roman army, which is roughly what you would expect from most contemporary battle descriptions: the heavy infantry was by far the most important and numerous with about a tenth of the army being cavalry support, so it is probably reasonable to suggest another tenth to have comprised missile and light infantry.

If the cavalry made up about a tenth of the Roman army, then of our fifty thousand specialist auxilia only twenty thousand are probably foot-soldiers. This force included all sorts - Syrian and Greek archers, Thracian falx-wielders, Caucasian club-men, etc etc - but I'm prepared to bet that slingers made up the majority, because the Romans demonstrated such a preference for them and they feature in so many battles. Maybe 10,000 men then - a thirtieth of the entire Roman army. Twenty cohorts. It doesn't seem too unrealistic.

That's overall. On a practical level, if a standard Roman force comprised about twelve thousand men (one legion plus auxilia and various detachments from all over, with none of the units quite up to their full numbers as seems to have been common), then it probably had about a cohort of slingers in support - Balearics, Rhodians, Spaniards, Britons, Anatolians, or just local shepherds.

Sorry I didn't cite any sources, I don't remember where most of my knowledge comes from. Tongue
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #36 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 4:58am
 
I don't think there's any evidence, in the imperial army, for specialist, full time cohorts of slingers. Infantry, cavalry, mixed units, archers, yes; in campaigns, Traj. column shows barbarian auxiliaries (club men, slingers)-- but these seem to be levies or ad hoc bodies (like the allied slingers who show up during the Jewish War), not part of the standing army.

Litt sources, e.g. accounts in Tacitus do mention archers and slingers (and "libritores", whatever they are-- staff slingers ? hand catapult guys ?) in battles (not at Mt Graupius, but during Germanicus' battles in early C1st AD; am not familiar with C2nd AD battle narratives: Dio ? Historia Augusta ?); the battlefield at Teutoburger Wald (AD 9), among other stuff, yielded lead sling bullets. So who did the slinging, in the Roman army ? As yet unattested specialist full time units ? Or a mixture of ad hoc levies, auxiliaries and legionaries detached on :slinging duty" ? I favour the latter solution: after all Vegetius tells us that legionaires are trained to throw stones by hand-- and to sling.
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #37 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 6:56am
 
Hallo there!
I've provoked a lot of questions... let see if I can even answer to them  Smiley
Thearos, evidences of Picenian slingers come from all of those glans - a great part of them have been thrown from Picenian slingers, be they enlisted in the Roman Army or on the wall of Asculum, protecting their capital against it. A smaller number of those glans have been used by Venetian auxiliares that helped the Roman repressing the Social War of 91b.C.
I'll post a picture of a sculpture now at the Archaeological Museum in Ascoli:
...
(courtesy of www.archart.it); this sculpture has been made to celebrate the victory over the city; those represented are probably Picenian slingers serving the Roman Army, analyzing their poor clothes and the absence of any other weapon, and, most important, the fact that this sculpture has been exposed in front of the city gate just after the Romans conquered it, as a memento.
For the 360'000 Picenian at the beginning of IIIrd Century: Plinius talks about this (Naturalis Historiae, III 18, 110). You've done a very good operation: 360'000:2=180'000 males. Of those, it's easy to find just 10'000 capable of handing a sling or some other weapon.

Howewer, you will never find some ancient historician saying clearly that "Piceni are famous slingers". You have to deduct this by a lot of other evidences, the most important being literature, founding of hundreds of glans, the fact that Picenian's way of warmaking has always been guerrilla-style (in which the sling fits well), and the fact that Piceni have been the last Italic population to fall into the Roman orbit, in the center of Italy - they were tough people: after conquering them, the Romans deported about 1/3 of the population in South West Italy, and another 1/3 in South East.
Howewer, we still find dozens of glans, such as this from my collection:
...
found in the shores of the Tronto river, were the Piceni have been involved in their last important battle.

This has been a long off-topic, howewer, but I hope to have been clear enough  Cheesy
For Picenian slingers serving in the Roman Army during the IIIrd Century, check out the Trasimeno and Cannae Battles  Wink
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #38 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 9:36am
 
Thanks for your reply, v. interesting.

The relief is v. interesting. The style of the information panel is an immediate giveaway: this is not from Ascoli, from the old Museo della Civilta Romana in Rome-EUR, as confirmed by the archart.it site; i.e. the caption may date to the 1930s and is not necessarily reliable. I don't think these are slingers; more likely dancers in a Lupercalia style ritual, with speacial dress. 

The sling bullets of Asculum date to the siege of 90-89: they do not show that the Piceni were famous slingers, only that slings were used during the siege-- by the Roman besiegers and the defenders. In other words, the sling bullets are linked to a particular event and not to local practice.

There is no mention of Picene slingers in the account of Trasimene (the ambush by the Carthaginians leads to close in sword fighting) and Cannae (where Polybios and Livy mention Baleares). There is no source that says "the Piceni are famous slingers", but there are plenty of sources saying that "the Baleares / Achaians / Akarnanians / Rhodians" are very good with the sling"-- i.e. when people were good with slings, other people usually noticed.

I would conclude that the Piceni were not specially good at slinging; they may have slung, and in fact did sling when they had to fight on their own soil during their war with Rome-- organized lead bullet supply for the fighting-- but so did everyone else.
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #39 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 9:55am
 
While I'm at it:

Asculum I (Pisa, 1975), has a study by U. Laffi on ancient Ascoli Piceno. p. xxvvii "Come e noto, la grande  magioranza della glandes ascolane e stata rinvenuta nell ' alvea del Castallano, il torrente che cinge la citta a S. e a E e confluisce nel Tronto a NE della citta stessa. (other findspots listed). Questa distribuzione dei reperti fornisce, a mio avviso, utili indizi per la riconstruzione della topografia dell'assedio...

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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #40 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:15am
 
Quote:
I don't think there's any evidence, in the imperial army, for specialist, full time cohorts of slingers. Infantry, cavalry, mixed units, archers, yes; in campaigns, Traj. column shows barbarian auxiliaries (club men, slingers)-- but these seem to be levies or ad hoc bodies (like the allied slingers who show up during the Jewish War), not part of the standing army.  
 
Litt sources, e.g. accounts in Tacitus do mention archers and slingers (and "libritores", whatever they are-- staff slingers ? hand catapult guys ?) in battles (not at Mt Graupius, but during Germanicus' battles in early C1st AD; am not familiar with C2nd AD battle narratives: Dio ? Historia Augusta ?); the battlefield at Teutoburger Wald (AD 9), among other stuff, yielded lead sling bullets. So who did the slinging, in the Roman army ? As yet unattested specialist full time units ? Or a mixture of ad hoc levies, auxiliaries and legionaries detached on :slinging duty" ? I favour the latter solution: after all Vegetius tells us that legionaires are trained to throw stones by hand-- and to sling.  


I appreciate the status of specialist units serving alongside the Roman army is highly debatable, but in the instance that specialist units of slingers did exist as full-time auxilia, as can be argued, I think my figure is probably a good estimate.
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #41 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:27am
 
But what if they weren't any full timers ? You'd have the archer units always there. And slingers ? Ad hoc stuff. At least worth thinking about.
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #42 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:57am
 
As I said, I appreciate that the question is still up in the air.

I think the only real answer to the thread title is, plenty when needed.
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #43 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:14am
 
Hallo everyone!
Thearos, I agree with your point of view: probably, Piceni did use slings, but were not skillful as Balears, Rhodians, etc...
I don't remember where I read of Piceni involved in the Trasimeno Battle, but I'm 100% sure that they helped Romans during the Cannae Battle, with slingers - I'm gonna ask my teachers as soon as possible  Smiley
Oh and I forgot another important battle, the Sentinum one (295 b.C.): here, the Romans fought Etrurians, Umbri, Sanniti and Galli (but the first two populations did not partecipate), helped by the Piceni. Note that, in that time, Piceni were not yet conquered by Rome, against which they began a war in 269 b.C. Even in the ancient Sentinum (now Sassoferrato), we have foundings of lead glans, but they may have been thrown by everyone - it's a fact that Piceni did partecipate.
Still, a lot of evidence that Piceni did use the sling, but much less that they were skilled slingsmen: I had misunderstood the topic's title, which is "How many slingers were in the Roman Army", and not "How good were Roman Army's slingers?"  Smiley

A small note about the relief: it is conserved in Rome, but it comes from Ascoli Piceno, and doesn't show dancers, because at least the two in the left wear helmets - I have a very detailed pic of that particular in my "Archeologia nelle Marche", I'll try to post it as soon as possible!
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Thearos
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Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Reply #44 - Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:21am
 
Thanks. But do they have a sling in each hand ?
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