Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 11
Send Topic Print
Pics of ancient slingers (Read 68947 times)
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #60 - Dec 17th, 2009 at 9:15pm
 
Slingers (well, in the images from antiquity) don't have shields, except for an auxiliary on  Trajan's column. They do fight against other missile troops, though-- in the skirmish line, that's their function. What protects them ? Dispersion, crouching, distance, fire and movement..

So why shielded slingers ? In the med. manuscript, the context is siege warfare-- where dispersion and movement are not possible. That might be one explanation.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
winkleried
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1534
Norman Oklahoma
Gender: male
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #61 - Dec 17th, 2009 at 10:07pm
 
Thanks Jaegoor

Marc Adkins

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 8:02am:

Back to top
 

The Few...The Proud.....The Slingers&&Sling to live, Live to sling&&I Ain't right
WWW winkleried  
IP Logged
 
Fundibularius
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Sultan of Sling

Posts: 1385
Inter Mosam ac Rhenum
Gender: male
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #62 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 4:38am
 
I finally found the original source. The harrowing illustration is from the Luttrell Psalter (ca. AD 1330). It is now in the British Library, signature MS 42130.

Back to top
 

Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
IP Logged
 
ShuKoon Deda
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinginers always beat
archers!

Posts: 11
Zagreb, Croatia
Gender: male
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #63 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 8:13am
 
Thearos wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 9:15pm:
So why shielded slingers ? In the med. manuscript, the context is siege warfare-- where dispersion and movement are not possible. That might be one explanation.


You have a point there.
While roman auxiliary units were often multifunctional, Trajan's column could be correct in the slinger with a shield situation.
Back to top
 

Yea, right...&&&&You're like a constant downer, ha?&&&&Oh, look. It's my kidney.&&&&Don't hate the Players. Hate the Game.
ShuKoon Deda  
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #64 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 10:02am
 

I would disagree about the slinger/shield situation.

We know javelin skirmishers carried a shield. Archers cant use a shield but slingers certainly can. And slingers need shields because...?

My hypothesis is that the opening ranged volleys from skirmishers were not initially directed against the enemy heavy infantry but against their skirmish line. These are, after all, the first enemy units to come into range as the armies close on each other.

The slingers and archers are then embroiled in a ferocious firefight against each other for posession of the shrinking centre ground. The javelin throwers are not in range yet and stay well back, probably just in front of the main infantry.

If your sides slingers and archers prevail then you have a big advantage during the next stage, which is the javelin rush. When the enemy infantry is close enough, the javelin throwers charge across the centre ground and start hurling their weapons. This is the first time the main infantry has been targeted, because the javelin is the first weapon that can inflict real damage on heavily armoured and shielded formations.

The focus of the skirmishing battle is to win dominance of the centre ground for your javelin rush. If you lose that dominance, then your javelin men will have to charge into the teeth of enemy slingers and archers, who are able to shoot diagonally thanks to their much greater ranges and thus create a hellish crossfire that a single shield cannot protect against.  Shocked

After several volleys of javelins with the armies getting perilously close together, its time to get the heck out of the way. The skirmishers near the flanks can run around the ends of their lines but the ones in the middle have to move back through their own infantry. Thats easy enough, if you put up a good show and kept the enemy javelins away from your infantry, they will gladly move aside and let you through. If you sucked, and the enemies javelins have inflicted serious casualties... forget it. You're toast.   Tongue
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ShuKoon Deda
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinginers always beat
archers!

Posts: 11
Zagreb, Croatia
Gender: male
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #65 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 11:49am
 
Alright, but if we are talking about slingers with led bullets then a wicker shield, as was inclined before, would prove to be no protection at all. AK-47s use led bullets because they can pierce through harder metals because led is softer. Javelin throwers had three javelins, four tops, and you use them to injure the enemy, rarely kill. A javelin goes through a person, does not necessarily kill him, but hinters his movement, possibly even stops him all together, and can't be pulled out.
A bullet thrown from a sling can pierce through shield and armor (probably not both at the same time, depends on the distance), and as such can do serious damage.
If we are taking a roman army for example, as your tactics inclined, than the skirmishers disperse from their formation and easily run between the infantry units because they don't make one unbroken line, they are divided into units that have some space between them, enough for the skirmishers to pass without making a fuss.
Back to top
 

Yea, right...&&&&You're like a constant downer, ha?&&&&Oh, look. It's my kidney.&&&&Don't hate the Players. Hate the Game.
ShuKoon Deda  
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #66 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:12pm
 
Can a lead bullet pierce a wicker shield ? Or even, for that matter, a flat-board wooden shield ? I'd love to see proof of that.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #67 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:31pm
 

A test for lead bullet penetration against goatskin stretched over two layers of wicker is needed here. I'll bet it doesnt go through, the goatskin will resist tearing while the wicker bends and absorbs the energy, just like a modern flak vest works.

And I dont know what you have in mind when you speak of javelins, but I have two; both 4.5 feet long, one an inch in diameter, the other 3/4 inch. They have sharp steel leaf-bladed heads and are thrown with an amentum. Either of these will absolutely take someone out of a fight, no ifs or buts. Only very good plate armour is going to stop one. Three javelins in the left hand and one in the right is an easy combat loadout.

Romans did fight as a collection of Maniples but before that, armies were arranged as a single long Phalanx:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniple_(military_unit)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ShuKoon Deda
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinginers always beat
archers!

Posts: 11
Zagreb, Croatia
Gender: male
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #68 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:44pm
 
If you are throwing a javelin from a distance of 30 m how many of them are going to put down? Depends on the javelin you use, but they ain't playing golf to have a chance to choose what they will throw.
About the shield, it has to be light to be functional (not to throw you of balance), so I believe that from 50 m there would be no protection at all. I also believe that a bullet could pierce that kind of a shield at a 100 m distance.
That's just what i think, but an experiment is needed! Long live science!
Back to top
 

Yea, right...&&&&You're like a constant downer, ha?&&&&Oh, look. It's my kidney.&&&&Don't hate the Players. Hate the Game.
ShuKoon Deda  
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #69 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:46pm
 
Thearos wrote on Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:12pm:
Can a lead bullet pierce a wicker shield ? Or even, for that matter, a flat-board wooden shield ? I'd love to see proof of that.


Wood on its own vs a sling stone is easily destroyed, I have often knocked inch thick branches off trees at 80 yards or more. I would like to see wood covered by leather or rawhide tested against lead bullets.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #70 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 1:11pm
 
ShuKoon Deda wrote on Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:44pm:
If you are throwing a javelin from a distance of 30 m how many of them are going to put down? Depends on the javelin you use, but they ain't playing golf to have a chance to choose what they will throw.


I'm not clear on what you mean here.

Anyway, I just did an experiment: two javelins, one staff sling, one broom handle (soon to be another javelin) and a mop. All in the left hand, one between each of the fingers and two under the thumb. All were held securely, I could shake and wave my hand around without dropping them. I then 'loaded' them in turn (using the amentum on the two that had it) with a shot-to-shot speed of four seconds. Thats better than I manage with a sling!

Back to top
 

javelins_01.jpg (58 KB | )
javelins_01.jpg
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #71 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 1:14pm
 
The way they splay out makes it easy to grab the right amentum. They overlap in a natural last-in-first-out sequence. Plus one already in the throwing hand, thats one hell of a barrage!
Back to top
 

javelins_02.jpg (68 KB | )
javelins_02.jpg
 
IP Logged
 
ShuKoon Deda
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinginers always beat
archers!

Posts: 11
Zagreb, Croatia
Gender: male
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #72 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 2:36pm
 
Congrats!
Now you have to strap a shield too. Ah, experimental archeology.
I was thinking of different types of javelins, and different functions, depending on the distance from which it is hurled, width, weight, length and material. A pilum bends on impact, sort of, and stuff like that.
Back to top
 

Yea, right...&&&&You're like a constant downer, ha?&&&&Oh, look. It's my kidney.&&&&Don't hate the Players. Hate the Game.
ShuKoon Deda  
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #73 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 5:44pm
 
On balance, i still think the evidence for slingers suggest skirmishing with no shield-- even if-- in set battles-- they fight against other light troops
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Pics of ancient slingers
Reply #74 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 9:08pm
 

Why on earth would I go out into battle as a slinger without a shield? It doesnt affect my slinging and it protects me against pesky arrows. Get a two-strap shield and try it. When I did it was a complete anti-climax, it was no more difficult to reload and sling than it was without the shield.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 11
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Bill Skinner, Curious Aardvark, Rat Man, David Morningstar, Masiakasaurus, Chris, Mauro Fiorentini) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)