Slinging.org Forum - Makron cup (ca. 490)

Bill Skinner Forum Moderation Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 3292	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #45 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:36am They had to keep their shied if they were running down guys in armor. A naked guy with a sword fighting a guy in armor with a sword is commiting suicide.
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Mark-Harrop Funditor Offline cracker of zombieskulls Posts: 553 worldwide Gender:	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #46 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:39am "Naked" in the military sense generally means unarmored…or even lightly armoured. Yes, there have been those who have gone into battle completely naked…but they usually find out that whatever magic was protecting them didn't work out the way they planned.
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JAG Junior Member Offline Pussy Cat Posts: 80 GB Gender:	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #47 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:19pm Mr Harrop, you shouldn't confuse soldiers with warriors. The first do it for money and power, the second for the honour of his gods. "And how can man die better, Than facing fearful odds, For the ashes of his fathers, And the temples of his Gods"
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #48 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:23pm

The question is whether a naked guy with a shield can catch a (non-naked) guy with a couple of javelins and maybe a wicker shield.

N. Sekunda argues for progressive lightening of infantry armour (following J. Anderson), in the 460s already, culminating in the Peloponnesian habit (imitated by Boiotians) in later C5th of fighting with open-faced helmet, shield, and basically a workman's shirt

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Cities/Tegea.html
(scroll down)

http://arachne.uni-koeln.de/arachne/index.php?view[layout]=objekt_item&search[co...

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Mark-Harrop Funditor Offline cracker of zombieskulls Posts: 553 worldwide Gender:	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #49 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 3:59am A true warrior has no need for gods…they never show up on the battlefield anyway. Cowards the lot of 'em. …and as far as naked guys running around, I have no idea.
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JAG Junior Member Offline Pussy Cat Posts: 80 GB Gender:	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #50 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 4:59am I've often noted the complete lack of spiritual thought in the warriors of history. The Chinese martial arts are renowned for it. As for naked men running around, well i can see the attraction
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Oxnate

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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #51 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 7:41pm

Mark-Harrop wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 3:59am:

A true warrior has no need for gods…they never show up on the battlefield anyway.

Cowards the lot of 'em.

Ha!

JAG wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 4:59am:

I've often noted the complete lack of spiritual thought in the warriors of history. The Chinese martial arts are renowned for it. Roll Eyes

You've known a lot of historic warriors, have you?

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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine: 'Yea' isn't the word you want. It's 'yeah'. 'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me. Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.

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Bill Skinner Forum Moderation Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 3292	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #52 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:18pm Most warriors in history were pretty much what we would refer to today as thugs. Once they won, they got the bards to pretty up what they actually did. That's why you have the noble hero fighting the base churl.
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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #53 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm

A bronze cuirass from my region dating to the 7th century b.C. shows a naked warrior who's forcing another one to have anal sex once he won him on the battlefield.
Pretty much all of our bronze figures shows naked warriors until the Greek culture arrives - that is, end of the 7th century b.c.
Before this it seems that they only had helms, war belts and weapons, but these bronze figures are misleading as we find shields, cuirasses and everything that can be used to defend yourself in their tombs.
It's the long-sought willing for Homerus' heroical fighting, but in my opinion we can't exclude that some of them went to battle almost naked.
Greetings,
Mauro.

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JAG

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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #54 - Sep 10^th, 2014 at 1:37am

Oxnate asks "You've known a lot of historic warriors, have you?"

JAG Replies:

Did I claim to? Err.... No. I have however studied enough chinese martial arts to know that each is primarily a philosophy. The same is true of many other fighting systems.

I also have military experience and am well aware of the importance of God to many in uniform.

Personally, God is pointless. Faith however is extremely powerful.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #55 - Sep 10^th, 2014 at 4:26pm I would agree with Mauro, in that the Greeks did strip to do hard manual work-- why not fighting, indeed ? John Boardman thinks so. Greetings, Mauro. La nave va ?
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Oxnate

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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #56 - Sep 10^th, 2014 at 8:04pm

JAG wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 4:59am:

I've often noted the complete lack of spiritual thought in the warriors of history. The Chinese martial arts are renowned for it. Roll Eyes

As for naked men running around, well i can see the attraction Cheesy

JAG wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 1:37am:

Oxnate asks "You've known a lot of historic warriors, have you?"

JAG Replies:

Did I claim to? Err.... No. I have however studied enough chinese martial arts to know that each is primarily a philosophy. The same is true of many other fighting systems.

I also have military experience and am well aware of the importance of God to many in uniform.

Personally, God is pointless. Faith however is extremely powerful.

My point to your original point (copied above) is that warriors didn't tend to do much writing. Less than philosophers at least, and very few works survive from anyone who wasn't a general or a king of some sort.

My other point was that since none of us were around back then, we don't know what the actual martial arts practiced back then looked like. But an easy bet would be that they were far more practical and less philosophical/spiritual than today's martial arts.

It goes along with what Bill Skinner said:
Bill Skinner wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:18pm:

Most warriors in history were pretty much what we would refer to today as thugs. Once they won, they got the bards to pretty up what they actually did.

That's why you have the noble hero fighting the base churl. Grin

Knights back in the day were thugs, murderers, rapists, and worse. "Chivalry" was added later to try and get those [not polite Lips Sealed

] people to shape up. It was unlikely that it was any different in the East. Philosophy and spiritualism were added to "enlighten" the thugs that were doing the fighting. How much they really followed it back then is anyone's guess.

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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine: 'Yea' isn't the word you want. It's 'yeah'. 'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me. Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.

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Mauro Fiorentini

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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #57 - Sep 10^th, 2014 at 9:20pm

La nave va - we're heading for Portugal right now.

None of us were there in the ancient times, so we can only guess.
I suggest we can amplify our research by analyzing some present-day populations and cultures (let's read things anthropologically!).
While in the Philippines, I have seen two guys fighting each other totally naked except for a slip, they were wielding a whip and a wicker shield.
While in the Borneo jungle, I've seen Young men in a village dancing their war dance, they were naked except for a slip and were armed with a steel parang. They told me that in battle their ancestors (head hunters) used to wear a corset made of cork, which was able to stop the pins blown by the blowguns they used.

Checking African tribes could help, eg. let's analyze how the Masai went into battle against the English during their colonialist war.
Greetings,
Mauro.

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Bill Skinner Forum Moderation Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 3292	Re: Makron cup (ca. 490) Reply #58 - Sep 10^th, 2014 at 10:47pm Not all warriors were thugs, nor were all soldiers noble defenders or mercenaries. Some were just people defending their homes. They didn't consider themselves warriors or soldiers, they considered themselves citizens.
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Mark-Harrop

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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #59 - Sep 11^th, 2014 at 2:15am

There is a reason the anal sex is often referred to as "Greek"…

Shocked

From a Boardman book review about vase paintings: Tricks for studying vases are also included: one amusing example takes note of a vase that can be roughly dated because the names of its young lad models, some of whom grew up to be well-known citizens, are listed on it. ("They were only of interest to their aged fondlers while they were still boys," notes Boardman.)

Huh

Fighting naked can be a sign of faith in the magic protecting you. During the Liberian civil war there was a General named Butt Naked, who fought naked for this very reason.

Zulus thought their flimsy shields could stop bullets if they were dipped in water...

Real armor is more effective than magic though…at least in my experience.

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