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Makron cup (ca. 490) (Read 22469 times)
David Morningstar
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #30 - Oct 12th, 2009 at 10:24am
 

Is there any reason why a bag of ammo carried over the elbow would be preferable to one carried across the body at the waist?
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #31 - Oct 12th, 2009 at 10:37am
 
could be a personal preference by a particular slinger.
It's a stretch but I am trying to be reasonable here lol
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Thearos
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #32 - Oct 12th, 2009 at 1:57pm
 
CA: you write that the man's preparing for a figure-8 throw. This cannot be. Look at his hands. The right hand is pointing upwards and outwards. He is preparing for a helicopter shot. This is a precisely observed detail, carefully rendered.

You write that he should have carried lead bullets. This is not possible: they appear only at the very end of the C5th. Before that, slingers use stones (in Greece; in the Near East, baked clay, sometime).

Of course the slinger would have reloads somewhere. But the cup suggests that in the firing line, a man holds a tactical load.

Do you have pictures of slingers with pouches ? (DM reproduced, once, the guy with the animal skin on his arm, a floppy hat, and a sling, but I can't remember if he has a pouch).

DM: I would say the advantage of a hand held bag over the shoulder sling pouch is freedom of movement as the body swings and the weight shifts-- no bag slipping from hip to front.  I also wonder if the Greeks have the right sort of strap tightening technology (belt holes, straps, etc), to allow you to tighten a bag closely to the body.
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David Morningstar
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #33 - Oct 12th, 2009 at 3:47pm
 
Thearos wrote on Oct 12th, 2009 at 1:57pm:
Do you have pictures of slingers with pouches ? (DM reproduced, once, the guy with the animal skin on his arm, a floppy hat, and a sling, but I can't remember if he has a pouch).


That guy doesnt have a bag. I havent seen a decent ammo bag from any period. If there was, I would have already adopted it Smiley

Quote:
DM: I would say the advantage of a hand held bag over the shoulder sling pouch is freedom of movement as the body swings and the weight shifts-- no bag slipping from hip to front.  I also wonder if the Greeks have the right sort of strap tightening technology (belt holes, straps, etc), to allow you to tighten a bag closely to the body.


The Greeks were master sailors and you wonder if they could make an adjustable bag strap?

My own bag is improvised from an army surplus small canvas backpack with the shoulder straps tied to a webbing belt to make one big across-the-body strap. I adjusted it by tying it at the right length  Tongue

It sits perfectly comfortably and doesnt slide about. It will hold as much ammo as I want to carry. You can see it in this video, although its the 'wrong' way around. I was reloading with the left hand because the ammo was dirty, having just been collected from a wet riverbank. I dont like getting my slinging hand and sling all mucky Smiley

Normally I would have the bag on the right and reload with the right hand. I really should do a video of that sometime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNDLIhgezvo

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David Morningstar
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #34 - Oct 12th, 2009 at 5:13pm
 

Have a look at this video, you quite often see them doing that downward looking stone seating thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvmwE5_yuH4

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Thearos
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #35 - Oct 13th, 2009 at 5:12am
 
I think the Greeks didn't have the buckle, invented later (they knot their belts). But I  hand;'t thought of other systems ! But we should simply look at vases to see if there are picutres of bags worn on shoulder, in the style which is ubiquitous for us. Perhaps we should stay slinging with a bag in the crook of the arm-- "Makron-style", and see if works, and what the point might have been.

The cup shows two javelins stuck in the ground, with throwing straps. I suppose these will come in handy, once ammo is running out on both sides, and the skirmish moves from long range to mid range (hand thrown stones, javelins)-- the slinger gets two javelin throws, then bugs out. Incidentally, Strabo (I think) says the inhabitants of the Baleares are very good with javelins, too.

Will look at these vids when I get to another computer


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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #36 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 12:24pm
 
David Morningstar wrote on Oct 12th, 2009 at 10:24am:
Is there any reason why a bag of ammo carried over the elbow would be preferable to one carried across the body at the waist?


While slinging today, I tried to do some "Greeks" with an open ammo bag hung over my left elbow. The feeling was rather unusual but not "impossible", and I could imagine a professional slinger of the 5th century BC with some experience slinging this way, at least for some time.

Then I had another idea: Maybe the bag is carried this way because, if you have different types of ammo in it (glandes, ceramics, stones), you can pick your next (type of) shot quickly out of the bag without turning your eyes away from what is happening in front of you. This could be extremely useful in a combat situation like the depicted scene, when there are enemy archers shooting at you and you must be constantly watching them in order to maybe make a step aside or duck down or so at the right moment. Turning your eyes away and down to an open waist bag could be fatal when you are in the line of fire.  Undecided

Of course, you could also pick your ammo from a waist or shoulder bag without looking inside at all, just by touching the shots with your fingers, steadily watching to the enemy. But this is only useful if you have only one kind of ammo (or if you don't care). If you carry different sorts for different purposes (small, big, heavy, light, fragile, solid, ovoid, spherical etc) and want to choose your next shot, it seems a safer, more practical and quicker method to have the bag in front of you. Well, just an idea.
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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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David Morningstar
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #37 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 12:59pm
 
Fundibularius wrote on Oct 16th, 2009 at 12:24pm:
If you carry different sorts for different purposes (small, big, heavy, light, fragile, solid, ovoid, spherical etc) and want to choose your next shot, it seems a safer, more practical and quicker method to have the bag in front of you. Well, just an idea.


Or, you have a bag with internal dividers that keeps your ammo types separate  Tongue
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Fundibularius
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #38 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 5:22pm
 
Something like a diplomat's briefcase? Maybe. It would even please Clausewitz and his concept of war as the continuation of diplomacy with other means.  Wink

Yet I tend to think the "elbow method" is faster for somebody trained to use it. And it has the advantage that the slinger knows at any time of the combat by sight and weight how much ammo he still has left (without having to fumble around in or, worse, look into a waist bag).
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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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Thearos
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #39 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 3:35am
 
I like this-- specifically has to do with combat readiness and conditions.
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Thearos
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #40 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:38am
 
Just an update (from another thread). Small figures on black figure cup, ca. 520 BCE ?. Hoplite charging a slinger (who wears a nice "Thracian" cap), who has an ammo-basket or pouch hanging from his arm. I earlier wrote that the Makron cup was the only evidence for how ancient slingers carried ammo (in addition to Trajan's Column); this is a second image-- showing the same solution, basket in crook of left arm (a look which modern slingers find it difficult to rock).
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #41 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:40am
 
I think there may be some artistic license in there. 

Unless the Hoplites had a habit of going into battle naked?

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Thearos
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #42 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 9:26am
 
That is a problem (very widespread convention). Some people think that guys did strip for e.e. skirmishing. Others thinks it's a heroizing convention. But showing a guy naked is one thing, showing an ammo-basket (as an invention ? why invent such a detail ?) might be another.

If it WEREN'T license, what would the rationale be ? I tried and wondered if it was for fast reloads while not taking eyes off the enemy (to be able to dodge arrows and stones).
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« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2014 at 6:01pm by Thearos »  
 
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #43 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 9:42pm
 
I guess, if that's how you do it all your life, then you get used to it.  However, handing anything heavy on your arm and keeping your arm out from your body and letting the basket sway and jerk will get old pretty quick.

And if you are going to run around skirmishing, you will leave that honking heavy helmet and shield behind.  You will also have a belt with a scabbard for your sword.  In other words, you will be dressed pretty much like the slinger.  Otherwise, you won't be able to run them down.  Look at peltrasts, they were skirmishers.
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Thearos
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Re: Makron cup (ca. 490)
Reply #44 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:23am
 
Could having something in your left hand help with the "counterweight" effect of swinging the left arm when releasing ? I might try slinging with a e.g. 1.5 kg weight in the left hand to see.

THere were hoplites who trained in running down hoplites-- but i think they did keep the shield, just shed their body armour. (But did they strip further ? Or is nudity just a way to make them look like heroes ?)
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