Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Poll Poll
Question: Does lack of weapons knowlege effect historians adversely



« Last Modified by: Curious Aardvark on: Oct 3rd, 2009 at 10:15am »

Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print
Johnny Shumate's paintings (Read 15039 times)
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #15 - Sep 30th, 2009 at 11:30am
 
My guess is that a very important purpose of your slingers is to prevent the enemies slingers from getting into range of your main infantry and cavalry before they are formed up and you are ready to advance.

What you see is two loosely organised groups fighting a ranged battle against each other, testing each other and seeing if they can break through and get into range of the enemies main force. This would go on until the main show is ready to start.

Once one or both of the armies advances the skirmish intensifies as the area between shrinks. Once the main forces come into range they can be hit by slingers and archers, but at the same time these slingers and archers need to hold their ground against the enemies slingers and archers. If one sides skirmishers can sweep the other sides skirmishers off the battlefield then they have won a huge advantage for their side: an uncontested javelin volley into the main enemy ranks. Javelins are the big prize at the end of the skirmish battle. That only happens at the end because they are very short ranged compared to sling bullets and arrows.

Once the javelins are thrown it is time for the light troops to get the heck out of the way of the heavy infantry and hang back, keeping the enemy skirmishers away from your flanks and trying not to get flattened by cavalry. If the enemy line breaks anywhere your heavies need to keep their own line organised so light troops should rain death on the fleeing enemy and stop them from regrouping. Your cavalry will hopefully finish the job if they havent gone galloping off in their own private war with the enemy cavalry, which often happens.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12210
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #16 - Sep 30th, 2009 at 11:46am
 
Quote:
Do they just line up and fire oodles of ammo at each other, then done ? Or is it a more deliberate, directed sort of fight, with small bodies of men sniping, aimed shots, sometimes massed volleys, moving back and forth, a loose firing line trying to provoke the other side into loosing off all their ammo, sallies and threats, trying to bully the line out of the way, until stalemate is reached and each line has drawn off the other's sting ? 


I'll buy that, to a certain extent Smiley
But you just can't draw an analogy between slings and pretty much any other projectile weapon.

The way I usually put it is: most projectile weapons are 'idiot' weapons. So called because any idiot can use one with reasonable success after a very short practice spell.
Classic examples of 'idiot' weapons would be: guns, crossbows, bow and arrow (to a certain extent). Any weapon that can be sighted and easily aimed.

Conversely slings are NOT idiot weapons. It takes years of practice to develop sling accuracy to the point where you can compare it to even a novice bowman or rifleman.

So while any army would certainly possess a small number of slingers as snipers. The majority would be broad section slingers. Capable of getting a missile a certain distance and within a pretty broad target area.
In a way this cuts down their effectiveness as tactical fighters - but given their ability to put a lot of mass into the air for long periods of time I think they would be used far more for a debilitating and suppressing bombardment rather than surgical strikes.

The average roman legionnaire would have been a bombardment slinger with a few small units - like the balearic slingers of old - who would have been your specialist 'shooters'.

Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #17 - Sep 30th, 2009 at 12:02pm
 
It's Livy (using Polybios) who describes how the Achaians practised slinging on beaches-- shooting through *rings*. (He also says they could hit whichever *part of the face they aimed for, which I frankly find incredible). But imagine being able to sling through a ring, without touching the sides, at, say, 60 paces-- I'd imagine you'd still be able to get close to a human sized target at a good range. So yes, certain people are specialists.

Shumate: make the pouches a bit smaller, will you ?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #18 - Sep 30th, 2009 at 1:05pm
 

With respect to slinger skill, the skills are there if you have the coin to buy them. Rhodes was not small. The Acarnanians and Achaeans could put big numbers into the field. The Balearic islands provided two thousand slingers to Hannibal. In Xenophon's Anabasis, he can find 200 Rhodian slingers in his phalanxes and these men are good enough to hold off the Persian archers.

In other cases there will have been 'barn door' slingers - Persian armies used vast levies of subjugated populations as slingers, but these were for short ranged heavy bombardment (Anabasis again). Pompey deployed large numbers of archers and slingers but they were crushed by Julius Caesars forces after Pompeys cavalry routed.

At this point its worth pimping this link again:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=z1kbyWNJIt0C&lpg=PA56&ots=xLtZt2kgra&dq=pompe...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
TN.Frank
Funditor
****
Offline


Throwin' sticks and stones.

Posts: 682
Crossville, TN. U.S.A.
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #19 - Sep 30th, 2009 at 1:21pm
 
So, just like in the American Revolution you had groups of people armed with muskets for volley fire and groups armed with rifles for accurate fire.  Less skilled slingers would be used for volley fire where they'd just saturate the air with projectiles and hope that some would hit their mark while certain groups who were highly skilled would be able to "snipe" certain targets at a greater distance.  Wink
Back to top
 

Judges 20:16 "Out of all these troops, the best 700 were left-handed. Each could sling a stone at a hair and not miss."&&&&http://www.glockforum.com/forum&&
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #20 - Oct 1st, 2009 at 4:57am
 
I wouldn't mind slinging like an Iranian hillsman levy in the Achaimenid army-- at a guess, I'd be able to send a stone 150m or so with tactical accuracy, and much better than that at say 30 or even 60 m.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12210
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #21 - Oct 1st, 2009 at 6:19am
 
Accurate slinging isn't difficult ...
just takes a decade or so of daily practice Smiley

Now staff slings on the other hand - definitely 'idiot' weapons.

Mate I meet up with on dog walks had a go with the hoopoo last night.
every throw straight out to about 100 yards.
Hell his dog even brought a couple of tghe stones back (something bilbo never does lol)

The more I see people use a staff sling for the first time the more I seriously wonder why they don't figure more in the historical texts.
It's a bit odd.
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Past Moderator
*
Offline


Joined Nov. 1, 2006  Luke
14:14

Posts: 3265
Melbourne, Australia
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #22 - Oct 1st, 2009 at 7:24am
 
Guys,

Interesting and lively discussion; enjoyable and informative reading. If you have more info re the staff sling as a field weapon please say. I wonder how good you can get with it? It sure looks like you get good return on training time investment.

In the siege of Sancerre the slings were known as "Sancerre Arquebusses", indicating a comparison with firearms even in the minds of people at the time. Could these have been staff slings?

Keep it coming.

Aussie
Back to top
 

Cranks are little things that make revolutions.&&
 
IP Logged
 
xxkid123
Past Moderator
*
Offline


Hallo, ich heiße kartoffel

Posts: 4807
new to california
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #23 - Oct 1st, 2009 at 4:00pm
 
perhaps with a staff sling it would be easier to throw combustibles. plus back then staff slings where a probably a cheap alternative to sending huge arrows out of crossbows, rather they just had a person willing throw chunks of rock
Back to top
 

There's no break, there's no end, just a-living on;&&Wide awake, with a smile, going on and on.
xxkid123 tanma101  
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12210
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #24 - Oct 2nd, 2009 at 6:38am
 
well, probably. But I;m saying that staff slings have almost no learning curve.

I just don't see why they were not more widely used.
A company of staff slingers could have been trained up inside a couple of days.
Get the right length sling and staff and you're talking 150-200 yards range, always goes forwards, mostly goes dead straight.

It just strikes me as odd that hand slings - requiring much longer training periods and higher skill levels seem to have been the norm.

Our ancestors weren't idiots, so why weren't staff slings more common ?
Or were they so common that people just never bother mentioning them.
it's odd.
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #25 - Oct 2nd, 2009 at 7:42am
 

Decent plate armour makes long range sling bombardment ineffective. You would get a lot of noise and a lot of dents and bruises, but nothing worse than you would see in a rough game of rugby.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lycurgus
Senior Member
****
Offline


[ch924][ch927][ch923
][ch937][ch925] [ch923][ch913][ch914
][ch917]

Posts: 445
Coventry, England
Gender: male
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #26 - Oct 2nd, 2009 at 8:08am
 
David Morningstar wrote on Oct 2nd, 2009 at 7:42am:
Decent plate armour makes long range sling bombardment ineffective. You would get a lot of noise and a lot of dents and bruises, but nothing worse than you would see in a rough game of rugby.


It does disrupt formations though.
I was speaking to a chap who did an experiment by throwing bean bags at a group of people (albeit not trained warriors) armed with helmets and shields.
What he found was that the people close to where the bags were hitting bunched close together for protection, too close together to let them effectively wield a weapon, and the others shied away from where the projectiles were landing thereby leaving gaps in the shield wall. So bombarding a close formed unit prior to a clash of sheild walls could be an effective tactic.
Back to top
 

You only need two tools in life - wd-40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the wd-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.&&&&Remember - You are unique.............just like everybody else.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #27 - Oct 2nd, 2009 at 8:58am
 

My view of skirmishing troops on the classical battlefield is not unlike that of air power circa 1940. Archers and slingers are the equivalent of fighter aircraft, trying to gain control of the middle of the battlefield so that their javelin throwers (equivalent to bombers) can dish out the serious damage to the opposing side. If you get the chance you can go 'strafing' and hurt the enemies main force directly but you need to have won 'air superiority' first before you can do that.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #28 - Oct 2nd, 2009 at 11:29am
 
As promised. E. Simon, The Kurashiki Ninagawa Museum (1982), no. 34. Cup wth painting by Makron. Ca. 490 BC. Outside> banqueting scene. Inside: slinger.

Some comment: the slinger has nice long sling. He wears a chiton, on top some sort of jack or padded vest (perhaps the "spolas"), and a cloak. On his left arm, a pouch with big round stones. He fights against archers. He has two javelins, with throwing thongs (the same arrangement, sling + 2 javelins, appears on C4th coins of the Ainianes-- easy to find, I think, or used to be in the numismatic www sites, but coinarchives.com has gone paying).

The inscription: HO PAIS KALOS (standard homo-erotic inscription), and LA, perhaps invocation to the stone, perhaps abbreviation of LA(BE), take that.
Back to top
 

MakronCup.jpg (21 KB | )
MakronCup.jpg
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3266
Re: Johnny Shumate's paintings
Reply #29 - Oct 2nd, 2009 at 11:33am
 
Bigger
Back to top
 

Makron2.jpg (70 KB | )
Makron2.jpg
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Bill Skinner, Mauro Fiorentini, Masiakasaurus, Rat Man, David Morningstar, Chris, Curious Aardvark) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)