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Slinging Range (Read 6321 times)
TheAznValedictorian
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Slinging Range
Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:08am
 
Hi, I am confused about something.

I was looking over the slinging range here:
http://slinging.org/index.php?page=sling-ranges

What I notice was something strange. Both Melvin Gaylor and Vernon Morton used heavy projectiles.  Generally, the heavier the projectile, the farther the projectile travels. Yes, if you go extremely heavy, then it would not work. But, as long as you do not go to the extreme, heavier is better. So far so good; if these two want to set the record, they would use things that would help then.

However, things began contradicting when I look over at Larry Bray's and David Engvall's records. Larry Bray basically used a far lighter projectile. David Engvall also used a light object, but it is slightly heavier than that of Larry Bray.

But why would they do that? Sure, they ended up beating Gaylor and Morton. But if heavier is better, why would they not make their acheivement even more decisive?

So lighter is better than heavier then. But if that is the case, then why would both Gaylor and Morton not use lighter objects?

Now, I'm just a bit confused. Do you guys know what is going on here?
Also, as an aside, do you guys know what year Morton accomplished his record?

Thank you
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David Morningstar
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #1 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 6:32am
 
A good question.

David Engvalls projectile was a streamlined finned lead dart looking a lot like a skinny zeppelin. This would be extremely aerodynamic in flight and so gets good range by losing as little as possible to air resistance.

Larrys throw with an ordinary stone is amazing, but he can throw way over 300 meters on demand. I'm betting that with a lead glande he could go over 500 metres.

You can see how mass affects the ballistic coefficient here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_coefficient


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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #2 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 7:49am
 
For any given shape and release velocity a heavier (denser) projectile will go further than a lighter one, as it has more kinetic energy to overcome air drag. This would seem to indicate that the the heavier the better, BUT of course the limitations of human strength come into play. When slinging at 110 m/s (approx. 250 mph) velocities the G forces on the stone/pouch are in the order of 400 so your 2 oz. stone is going to feel like a 50 lb rock in there. That's just to keep it in a circular path. To actually accelerate it from zero up to the release speed and to overcome the air drag on the sling itself will take even more force. So though a heavier projectile may in theory perform better you may not be able to get it up to the required speed. Larry Bray used an ordinary rounded pebble. Had he used a lead streamlined "glans" the same throw would have gone a lot further.

To sling like Larry Bray you not only have to be good, you have to be strong, and use the best equipment if you're really chasing records.
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #3 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 9:25am
 
heavier is not better - it's that simple. Don't know where you got that idea from, it has no evidential basis that I can think of.

Aerodynamic is better. Density and aerodynamic is even better.

Quote:
To sling like Larry Bray you not only have to be good, you have to be strong

Nyahh, not really. It's 90% technique and 10% conditioning.
As evidenced by the fact that 26 years after throwing his world record he was still capable of putting a golf ball around the 400 yard mark. Don't get me wrong he's still a trim fit bloke, but he'd be the first to admit he was in better shape as a youngster.
I'm probably at least 50% stronger than larry in brute strength terms - but I just don't throw as hard.
Totally different techniques.

His conditioning came as a result of being a baseball pitcher.
Again technique is more important than brute strength.

So yes physical conditioning is a factor - but not as large a one as you might think.
Missile density and aerodynamism and the sling length and technique used are far more important.
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Mr. Boss
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #4 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 11:26am
 
For me a 4 oz (110 grams) rock goes the farthest but since i live in a place were there is a lot of air drag, the rock has to be as spherical as possible. But i can imagine a 4 oz lead ball would get an extra 200 feet or more because it would be denser. And if you want to sling far, then the tecnique your using will involve putting most, if not all, of your body weight into it. It doesn't matter how fast you spin it btw.
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TheAznValedictorian
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #5 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:45pm
 
Ah, I see, thanks guys.

I have several questions:
1. The dart that David Engvall used were modern upgraded, right? In other words, the ugrades would not have existed in Greek/ Roman darts, right?
2. Were the darts used in warfare at around the times of the Romans between 40 to 70 grams?
3. At what age did Larry Bray accomplished his record?
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David Morningstar
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #6 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:56pm
 
TheAznValedictorian wrote on Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:45pm:
1. The dart that David Engvall used were modern upgraded, right? In other words, the dart would fly better than that of the Greeks/ Romans, right?


Certainly as well as and maybe better than a classical lead sling bullet.

Quote:
2. Were the darts used in warfare at around the times of the Romans between 40 to 70 grams?


Greek lead sling bullets were mostly 25 to 30 grams. Roman sling bullets were more variable, up to 70 grams.

Quote:
3. At what age did Larry Bray accomplished his record?


Dunno. He's no youngster though. The record was set 30 years ago.
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #7 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 8:11pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Jun 8th, 2009 at 9:25am:
heavier is not better - it's that simple. Don't know where you got that idea from, it has no evidential basis that I can think of.

Aerodynamic is better. Density and aerodynamic is even better.

Quote:
To sling like Larry Bray you not only have to be good, you have to be strong

Nyahh, not really. It's 90% technique and 10% conditioning.
As evidenced by the fact that 26 years after throwing his world record he was still capable of putting a golf ball around the 400 yard mark. Don't get me wrong he's still a trim fit bloke, but he'd be the first to admit he was in better shape as a youngster.
I'm probably at least 50% stronger than larry in brute strength terms - but I just don't throw as hard.
Totally different techniques.

His conditioning came as a result of being a baseball pitcher.
Again technique is more important than brute strength.

So yes physical conditioning is a factor - but not as large a one as you might think.
Missile density and aerodynamism and the sling length and technique used are far more important.


CA,

I wish you would avoid the snappy little one liners like, "heavier is not better". The trouble is they are so ambiguous that I am not sure whether I agree or not because it depends so much on what you mean.

If you are contradicting my assertion that for any given release velocity, with similar sized and shaped objects the heavier ones will go further then all I can say is, "cobblers". I often inject water into tennis balls to make them heavier. Same size, same surface conditions and shape, same release velocity etc. only difference is an extra 20 grams of weight. They go further. There goes your assertion that there is no evidence. Course there is. (have a play with Matthias' simulator and vary only weight - observe the effect.)

Even with stones of the same type, ie. same density, the bigger ones go better up to a point. Trouble is once they get too heavy it's hard to throw them as fast. So despite being theoretically better ammunition, the limitation is my strength. Same slinging technique but my dicky shoulder stops me taking advantage of the better stone. Sure technique is the dominant factor but I have reached the point where I just can't throw them. Strong blokes like you would merely laugh and put me to shame.

When one of our members asserted he was throwing 5 oz stones at 250 mph I pointed out that the tension in the cords would be in the order of 150 lbs. Of course it's possible that he is super strong and can actually hold and spin such a sling, probability is low though.

Larry's technique is unquestionably good. I did not say or intend to imply that technique was unimportant. But it's also an unquestionable fact of physics that the tenion in his sling cords with a 2 oz stone is well over 50 lbs. He has to be, and obviously is, good enough and strong enough to hang on to those cords with his fingers all at the blinding speed necessary to achieve the distances he does. Sure if his technique was crap he could be Hercules himself to no avail.  But if he was the stereotypical 98 lb weakling he wouldn't be throwing records either.

So if you're going to contradict something I've said because I've made a genuine mistake, fine! I'd sooner suffer the indignity than perpetuate an error. But don't just shoot from the lip, make your criticisms specific and accurate.

Aussie



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Wasichakuq
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #8 - Jun 9th, 2009 at 11:01am
 
By my experience so far.

Well, I’ve been slinging´ for about year and a half (regularly) In Lima, Peru.  I’m rockman´s friend and I’ve been practicing as long as him (but I don’t have his accuracy yet) and also with Nothingman.
There are more slingers around here and we’re sure to extend that number soon enough.

Talking of projectile weights:
One thing is sure… the heavier the faster the shot could be.. more mass, more acceleration etc. But it also a lot of how you get use to a certain weight.
At first it was easier for me to aim with lighter projectiles…also it’s easily to use your strength. IT`S EASIER TO CONTROL… but one more time it’s up to get use to it.
Right now, I prefer heavier projectiles ´cause once you get control of heavier ones, the better your accuracy will get and your shot will be stronger too. Lighter rocks are still easier to direct… but they’re not fine … not enough.

my opnion... medium weight =)
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TheAznValedictorian
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #9 - Jun 9th, 2009 at 7:34pm
 
I've noticed that David Engvall used a pouchless sling. Someone here has already explained to me that this reduces drag/friction.

My hunch tells me that this was a relatively new discovery and that the Greeks/Romans would probably unknowlingly used the pouch. I just want to make sure that my hunch is correct.


Also, David Engvall used a trigger mechanism. The same person told me that this makes for a cleaner release. However, I am not sure if this supplement would help in range in any way.
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #10 - Jun 9th, 2009 at 9:56pm
 
I believe Engvall invented the device. Whether it actually counts as a sling is debated by quite a number of people. He is I believe (others here will correct me if I'm wrong) that this is the same Engvall who holds the atlatl world record with another item of his own manufacture.

It was purposely devised for nothing but throwing a dart as far as possible. I don't think the Greeks would necessarily have found much use for it.

The release mechanism is intended to cause as little loss of kinetic energy as possible. From a traditional sling at least some goes into rotation of the bullet and drag off the pouch which diminishes the range.
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #11 - Jun 10th, 2009 at 11:13am
 
wanderer wrote on Jun 9th, 2009 at 9:56pm:
I believe Engvall invented the device. Whether it actually counts as a sling is debated by quite a number of people. He is I believe (others here will correct me if I'm wrong) that this is the same Engvall who holds the atlatl world record with another item of his own manufacture.

It was purposely devised for nothing but throwing a dart as far as possible. I don't think the Greeks would necessarily have found much use for it.

The release mechanism is intended to cause as little loss of kinetic energy as possible. From a traditional sling at least some goes into rotation of the bullet and drag off the pouch which diminishes the range.



So let me be completely certain. The Greek/Roman would use always used/usually used pouches, correct?
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David Morningstar
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #12 - Jun 10th, 2009 at 12:53pm
 
Slingers have always used two cords and a split or solid pouch throughout history. Some modern variants have been made to get different theoretical  advantages. I stick with the old skool Smiley
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #13 - Jun 10th, 2009 at 7:44pm
 
I like snappy one liners Smiley
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Re: Slinging Range
Reply #14 - Jun 10th, 2009 at 8:01pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Jun 10th, 2009 at 7:44pm:
I like snappy one liners Smiley


At least make your criticisms accurate then.
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